Lightning Grounding strap

including Amas (Floats), Akas (Beams) , Swing Wing system and all other hull related issues.
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LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

Lightning Grounding strap

Post by LInsolent »

I'm not sure my boat has one. How do they look like? thank you, Z.
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

I really don't think there is one on my boat. I know last year I took a side spike that took out most of the electronics. A boat next to me took a direct hit and then it jumped to mine. It exited through the speed transducer.
Since my 1000 is hull #1 i am not sure how the other boats are constructed.
If you are going to do some long distance sailing it might be worth looking into how to put one in.
Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Grounding plate, original?

Post by Steve B. »

My DF1000 has a Dynaplate on the hull directly below the mast.
I'm not sure if it's original or not.
The mast step is connected to a thick insulated wire (#8?) which is run inside the mast supporting teak in the saloon.
It exits behind a trim piece at the port forward corner of the centerboard, then into the bilge near the toilet intake thruhull.

Steve B.
LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

What happened to the other boat?

Post by LInsolent »

Cheers, I shall check; though I don't remember seeing any wire around the centreboard and the teak covering the mast is sealed.
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

Steve,
What hull number is yours?
I know for sure I do not have one on my boat.
Thanks
Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Post by Steve B. »

Flexible Flyer is hull number 15.
BTW, the mast is deck stepped and the "cover" in the saloon is support as well as a channel for the centerboard control lines.

Steve B.
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Re: Lightning Grounding strap

Post by Double Horizon »

LInsolent wrote:I'm not sure my boat has one. How do they look like? thank you, Z.
You will have to make this connection yourself.

http://www.moonraker.com.au/ftp/eplate.pdf

The e-plate is better than Dynaplate. The e-plate is also copper so barnacles do not grow on it.

The following is specific for the DF-1000:

1) Mount the e-plate in the bilge beneath the head-intake access port on the port side of the centerboard in the main cabin. Close to the centerboard the hull is solid fiberglass. Leave enough room so the outside portion of the e-plate doesn't interfere with centerboard operation.

2) Use AWG#4 insulated tinned copper wire with crimped and soldered battery cable lugs at each end (attach lugs after running the wire, so you can make your holes as small as possible). You will connect wire from mast base to e-plate.

3) A hole drilled just in front of the mast base will come through just in front of the bathroom aft bulkhead that separates the head from the main cabin. You can run the wire down that bulkhead behind the toilet and next to the door, next to the centerboard trunk.

4) A hole in the floor in the corner behind the toilet, about 3 cm from the centerboard trunk, will lead to the bilge area and the wire can be accessed in the bilge by reaching forward from the head-intake access port on the port side of the centerboard in the main cabin.

5) Keep radius of any bends in the wire gradual.
Last edited by Double Horizon on Thu 10 Sep 09, 12:25, edited 1 time in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

many thanks Larry

Post by LInsolent »

This looks a bit complicate for me but I defenetly need this device. I shall write to Australia to check if they can send it by post (3Kilos is not a lot).

An italian friend told me to use a thick copper wire from the basis of the mast till the water. Do you think this can be a temporary solution?
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

LInsolent wrote:
An italian friend told me to use a thick copper wire from the basis of the mast till the water. Do you think this can be a temporary solution?
It might help. Nobody can predict with certainty if lightning will follow any path you provide. Lightning may produce side-flashes even of you provide the direct path I described. It will likely follow the standing rigging then jump to the water also (forestay, shrouds). To reduce side-flashes -- Experts also recommend bonding all the major metal parts with (minimum) AWG#8 copper wire or braided straps, so they are all interconnected to the ground plate. This would be too much work unless it was done when building the boat, before the interior is finished. (Quorning did this on my 920 at extra charge, but that was the only DF I ordered new.)

If your boat is struck: Probably you would lose most electronics and possibly the engine controls/alternator diodes, even if you provide a direct ground. The best you can hope for by installing a ground path is no hull damage and a slightly lower risk of injury to the crew.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Oscar
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue 26 Aug 08, 23:10
Your Country: USA, North East

Post by Oscar »

An italian friend told me to use a thick copper wire from the basis of the mast till the water. Do you think this can be a temporary solution?
I have gone to the discount auto store and bought jumper cables, then cut off one side and stripped a foot of insulation. Clamped the other sides to the rigging and hung them in the water when at the mooring.
1990 Dragonfly 25 USA-54
LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

Post by LInsolent »

Oscar wrote:
An italian friend told me to use a thick copper wire from the basis of the mast till the water. Do you think this can be a temporary solution?
I have gone to the discount auto store and bought jumper cables, then cut off one side and stripped a foot of insulation. Clamped the other sides to the rigging and hung them in the water when at the mooring.
I think that's what I'll do for the time being. I'll try to find a better solution later at a proper shipyard. Many thanks to both of you.

Larry, you have all the DF collection, that's amazing! How many DFs did you have in total (920, 1000, 1200... more?)
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

LInsolent wrote:
Oscar wrote:

Larry, you have all the DF collection, that's amazing! How many DFs did you have in total (920, 1000, 1200... more?)
:lol: I do not have the whole collection -- I stepped up in size from 920 to 1000 to 1200 but never owned more than one except for a brief period while buying/selling.

Believe me, it would have been much less expensive if I just started with the 1200! :wink:

Although I would not call it a safe investment, owning a Dragonfly has had a very low "total cost of ownership" or "TCO" when resale value is considered (to-date). I don't know yet how the 1200 will do for me but I can tell you the prior owner got a very good deal when he sold to me.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

Post by LInsolent »

What are the main differences between the 10 and the 12? Just the 2 metres or while sailing is much different? :shock: I've tested the 9.2, it's amazing but it's not enough in living quality for ocean crossings.
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

1000 vs. 1200

Post by Double Horizon »

LInsolent wrote:What are the main differences between the 10 and the 12? Just the 2 metres or while sailing is much different? :shock: I've tested the 9.2, it's amazing but it's not enough in living quality for ocean crossings.
Difference:

First of all; any time you go up in boat size you add to the middle, not the ends. This adds beam throughout and length at the widest part of the hull so it affects volume in a very significant way.

The 920 or the 1000 are very nice for a couple or young family to coastal-cruise for a few weeks at a time. Either are OK for a couple plus one adult or with two children, but if you need to open up the starboard berth in the the main cabin it blocks the isle. The 1000 feels about 2 times as big as the 920 for interior volume and comfort in the main cabin, and a couple could be much more comfortable in the 1000 than the 920. The salon seats of the 1000 open to a wide full-length berth on the port side that is big enough for a couple, although the starboard side berth is short. Plus the inboard engine of the 1000 provides hot water and better battery charging, and better motoring through waves (without the prop aeration of an outboard engine), so it is a better cruiser all-around.

Comparing the 1000 to the 1200: The difference in hull volume and space for crew is night and day. The 1200 feels like it is 4 times larger inside and there is full standing room for a 6'4" person throughout the main cabin, head, and aft cabin. The 1200 is big enough for long-term cruising. The separate aft cabin on the 1200 gives privacy to the couple in the v-berth if you have 2 children or guests, and you can move around to make coffee in the morning and sit in the main cabin without climbing over your guests/kids berths. The 1200 main salon could also sleep a couple on the port side and one person on the starboard side in full-length berths, so in total it could sleep 7 (but that many would be crowded). The 1000 can sit up to 6 adults at the salon table in comfort, while the 1200 can seat 8.

The 1200 helm is perfectly balanced under sail and it handles waves much better than the 1000. It is also much stronger structurally, in the cross-beams and folding mechanism there is much less flex even while folded. Engine sound-proofing is better but still not quiet (I don't want to hear it at all). Electric winches make folding and sail-raising push-button-easy and the electric windlass makes it easy to raise anchor single-handed, even in a wind.

The 1200 cruising speed is faster under power and sail. Cruising is about 8 knots with the smallest engine option (Volvo-Penta MD22P, 58HP) and around 12 knots with the largest 150HP. The 1000 cruises at about 6.2 knots with the 20HP engine and closer to 7 knots with the 30HP. Under sail it always depends on winds and other circumstance but the longer waterline of the 1200 and better wave handling make it faster than the 1000 on-average. (There are conditions in either boat when you may want to reduce speed deliberately, but that time will come later on the 1200.)

The 1200 is an easier boat to sail than then 920 or the 1000. It is bigger and heavier so things happen slower but with more power. The sail handling systems provide adequate leverage to make the power a non-issue. We like to sail fast but not at "the edge", and when the wind is strong we feel more secure and relaxed in the 1200 than the smaller boats we have owned, and any guests are more comfortable too.

Overall the 920 was much lighter and responsive -- the most exciting and fun to sail of the three I have owned, and was the best day-sailor, but every boat decision involves trade-offs and we traded excitement for comfort/space (and reduced economy) as we went larger. Overall average speed has not gone down, however, and when we sail in "the teens" in the 1200 it still feels exciting.
Last edited by Double Horizon on Thu 17 Sep 09, 16:18, edited 2 times in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

Post by LInsolent »

Perfectly described Larry; many very thanks for this precious opinion from someone who has well experienced all the 3 boats (and writes brilliantly!).

I'm starting to be a 12 dreamer… but I still have to cross the Atlantic with L'Insolent :P . Best, Zé
LInsolent
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri 28 Aug 09, 10:29
Your Country: Cabanga Iate Clube, Recife, Brazil

Lightning grounding strap - answer received from DF

Post by LInsolent »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nicolai Kjærgaard [mailto:nk dragonfly.dk]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:44 AM
To: ALVES-PEREIRA Ze' Manuel (RELEX-BISSAU)
Subject: SV: DF1000 #27 L'Insolent - Lightning Grounding strap


Hi Ze´Manuel

I am happy to hear that you have had a nice holiday.

There is no lightning grounding strap on your boat as far as the electrician who build the boat says.
If it was mounted it would be a metal plate mounted through the hull next to the centre board chest.
This plate should be connected to a wire going to the mast base which again should be connected to the mast top through a wire coming from the mast.

I hope you will find a solution on this matter.

Best regards

Nicolai
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