Should I buy a DF 1000 or DF920

For all those DF1000 issues which do not fit into any of the categories below.
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tomitch
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 23 Sep 10, 15:24
Your Country: Saskatchewan, Canada

Should I buy a DF 1000 or DF920

Post by tomitch »

I am looking at two Dragonfly's right now. One is a 2002 DF 1000 the other a DF 920. I will be using the boat for coastal cruising, perhaps extended for several weeks. Is there much difference between the two?

Were there any build issues with the DF 1000 I should look for?
Thanks,
Mitch
“I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way”
tomitch
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 23 Sep 10, 15:24
Your Country: Saskatchewan, Canada

DF 1000

Post by tomitch »

After posting my question about the DF 1000 2002 vintage, I saw the post about the California boat that was a right off further down the list. That was the boat I was looking at.
This forum stopped me from making a $100K mistake!!
THANKS to everyone.
Still looking for a DF.
Mitch
email tomitch@me.com
“I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way”
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Post by Steve B. »

I'd look at the 1000 in Illinois.
I tried to email you but it bounced.
tomitch
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 23 Sep 10, 15:24
Your Country: Saskatchewan, Canada

DF 1000

Post by tomitch »

Thanks Steve, I tested my email and it seems to be working now. Not sure why it bounced.
tomitch@me.com
The Illinois boat looks very nice. I had a limit of 100 - 110K so maybe I am out of my league as it is 139,000. Thanks for the link.
Mitch
“I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way”
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

Mitch,
My 1000 is up for sale. Richard is handling it. It will be listed at the Annapolis show and is in your price range.
He has all the info on it, pictures and equipment list. Give either Richard or me a shout for more info.
Boat is in great shape.
Good luck.
Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
tomitch
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 23 Sep 10, 15:24
Your Country: Saskatchewan, Canada

Post by tomitch »

tpaliwoda wrote:Mitch,
My 1000 is up for sale. Richard is handling it. It will be listed at the Annapolis show and is in your price range.
He has all the info on it, pictures and equipment list. Give either Richard or me a shout for more info.
Boat is in great shape.
Good luck.
Ted
Thanks Ted, I may be coming down to the Annapolis show. Just working it out this weekend.
Mitch
“I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way”
Whitelighter
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 12, 22:21
Your Country: UK, Camberley

DF1000

Post by Whitelighter »

Can anyone give me details of the DF1000 mentioned above - I cant see the post the comment refers to. Looking at a 2002 1000 in Marina Del Ray
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

Don't quote me but I have heard that boat has a "history" behind it. You may want to do a little research about an incident a few years back where a boat wound up on the rocks at Marina Del Rey.

BTW - Mine is still available and is within your 100K price range.

Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Whitelighter
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 12, 22:21
Your Country: UK, Camberley

Post by Whitelighter »

Hmm,

Nothing comes up through google. I guess I will have an ask around.
I see yours is hull #1 - so I guess 1994/1995? Bit old for what I am looking for at 100k.

If anyone can give me any solid details that would be great, but I don't mind a repaired boat if it's been done right, especially as a 2002 it must be one of the last 1000's built (the last, hull 41 is for sale near me but it's bright yellow)
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

The boat was anchored and went on the rocks somewhere in that general area. I was told at the time that the tow company inflicted additional damage to the bottom when they dragged it off the rocks.

It was in 2007/2008 that the boat was declared a total loss by the insurer. I have emails from the owner at the time describing some of the issues. In addition to the hull damage, the engine needed work.

Rumor was the boat was bought from the insurance company in a salvage sale by a local boat builder who restored it. I have no knowledge of the quality of the restoration or whether the engine was replaced.

It might be a great deal if it was done right. That boat has the CF tall (racing) rig and that rig alone is worth over $50k replacement value. You want to get a surveyor who has a fiberglass repair background and who knows multihulls with cored construction. The 1000 has a cored hull except solid FRP in the vicinity of the crossbeams, centerboard and along the entire hull centerlines. Make sure the engine was replaced in 2008 or later. If not, I would suggest you allow for the cost of a re-power in your negotiations.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Whitelighter
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 12, 22:21
Your Country: UK, Camberley

Post by Whitelighter »

Hi DH,

Thanks for the info. It is that boat,t he broker has openly confirmed the boat has been repaired but has apparently been done to a high standard.

Not sure its worth the full $99k but if a deal can be done, subject to the quality of the repair it might still be a goer.

I have a question about the rig - was this rig ever offered by the factory on the 1000? Is it the rotating mast rig or something else.
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

Whitelighter wrote:Hi DH,

snip
I have a question about the rig - was this rig ever offered by the factory on the 1000? Is it the rotating mast rig or something else.
Yes the rig was from factory. The earlier 1000's came with a racing rig option that was a taller AL mast and rotating. Quorning stopped offering the rotating and AL masts, and offered a taller CF rig that is round, not rotating, as a racing option. That's the rig on the boat you're looking at.

I sailed that boat once when it was in Virginia (before it went to CA). It was a beauty. When it was sold to the owner in Marina Del Rey it was found to have a cracked engine block, and it was re-powered by that owner. The owner told me he didn't think the (new) engine was handled properly while the insurance company was dealing with the claim (it took a long time, meanwhile the engine which was exposed to water was allowed to sit). That's why you want to know if the engine was replaced in 2008 or later, not 2007 or earlier.

I would also look carefully at the wiring, especially in the engine compartment and below seat-tops and try to confirm it was rewired. A 1000 that has its center hull flooded will not sink all the way, but might have water up to near the seat tops, and sit deeper as you go aft, and there might have been a lot of wave action inside the cabin while it was towed to port (guessing on this). There is a big wiring bundle in 1000's that runs along the very bottom of the port main cabin settee, and there are some connections down low. You should look for evidence that the wiring was replaced, as Quorning (like most other EU boat builders) does not use tinned wire and any salt water that gets inside the insulation/connectors will corrode the copper conductors (they will turn black or green). Generally not an issue for inside the cabin, so long as the cabin stays dry (the wiring on my 10-year old 1200 is still shiny copper). If you see tinned wiring that is good -- you will know it was installed in the US as part of a refit or add-on.

Good luck.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

One thing to add; my advice if you are getting the boat with a 2007 or earlier engine, make sure you hire a qualified mechanic as part of your buyers survey to remove the heads and inspect the cylinders and valves.

Maybe replacement wasn't required, but you need to be extra sure about the condition of what you're getting in this case.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Whitelighter
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 12, 22:21
Your Country: UK, Camberley

Post by Whitelighter »

Cheers Larry,

I will go with caution, but on the upside it looks like there wont be queues of people to buy the boat.
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

That boat has been on the market for a few years - It is on EBay just about every other month too.

Good luck on your search.

Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

"A little damage"

Post by Steve B. »

Talk about an understatement, I used to have pictures of the damage.
It was NOT "a little damage".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ink:top:en

BTW, the boat used to have a bow platform. No longer.
Whitelighter
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 12, 22:21
Your Country: UK, Camberley

Post by Whitelighter »

All very interesting.

The boat has a value for sure - its a case of trying to establish what that value is. The seller appears to be upfront about the history.

New engine in 09 seems to have covered the issue of the damaged original unit.

All things considered its probably not worth 90k.

Would still like to see pics of the damage if anyone still has any
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Imagine this comparison

Post by Steve B. »

Ever seen photos of a small plane which has been sideswiped by a rotating propeller?

It was similar looking bottom damage, although not regular.
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

If it was repaired properly it's probably worth $75-90k in top condition. IMHO it would be worth closer to $130k-150k in top condition if it didn't have the "history". It's the newest 1000 in the US and probably the only one with CF rig, and it's recently repowered. When you consider the price of a new DF-920 or DF-28, and especially the price of a DF-35 -- a well-maintained used DF-1000 has very good value. The DF-1000 is a LOT more comfortable and luxurious boat than the 28 or 920, with probably twice the interior volume and inboard power.

The problem is the stigma of a boat that was written off by insurance will always make it more difficult for you to resell. That stigma affects the market price no matter how well it was repaired.

If you're capable of judging the repair quality and plan to hold on to it a long time it just might be a great deal. Repair quality is all that matters if you plan to keep it long enough to have your estate sell it after you're gone.
8)
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

It needs a windshield replacement too. A few hundred $ in polycarbonate for a 4x8 sheet plus labor. I did it on my 1000 and 1200 with my family helping -- You need a lot of hands and a few band clamps. Don't do like I did in the pictures -- it should be done on the boat. You should have a cover made to protect it from UV.

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by Double Horizon on Fri 24 Aug 12, 3:23, edited 3 times in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

I found 3 pics before repair

Post by Steve B. »

I found three of the hull damage pics of the boat in question.
Not sure if I should post them or what.
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Re: I found 3 pics before repair

Post by Double Horizon »

Steve B. wrote:I found three of the hull damage pics of the boat in question.
Not sure if I should post them or what.
I think we are all curious.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Hull damage pics

Post by Steve B. »

I'll post them if Bo agrees.
Whitelighter
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 12, 22:21
Your Country: UK, Camberley

Post by Whitelighter »

Hi guys,

All very helpful.

I agree with the stigma of a right off. Im happy to see through that and go on condition now plus the quality of the repair. Value wise he is asking $90k now, which I still think is a bit steep, though I take your point on the spec.

It would be coming back to the UK if a deal can be done, so might not suffer the stigma so much (though I guess a lot of DF peeps will still be aware of it).

If I can get it for some where in the $70's that would be good and probably worth a trip to CA to look at transport etc.

I would like to see the pics, and to be fair he isnt hiding the fact its been repaired so I dont see it will hurt. After all, fibreglass can be 100% repaired if its done well.

Thanks for all the comments so far
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Photos

Post by Steve B. »

Bo asked for the pics.
They will be posted soon.

Here they are:
Please click on any of the photos to see them enlarged!

Image Image Image
Feathercraft
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri 13 Apr 12, 11:22
Your Country: UK, Plymouth.

Dragonfly 1000

Post by Feathercraft »

Thank you for all your informative views on this vessel from owners / subscribers - Am a newbie- so play fair.

We would like to own a dragonfly too but might not be this one ........

Spoke with the Ebay.com seller of this Dragonfly 1000 who are:
Masons Yacht Brokers in Marina Del Rey Ca. USA. Agent is Ben Sabage.

Mason Yachts International,
Yacht & Ship Brokerage

CA:
13763 Fiji Way, Suite E-10,
Marina Del Rey, CA 90292.
www.masonyachts.com

(310) 651-4955 cell
(310) 577-8070 office
(310) 577-8220 fax


After a number of questions he said boat was damaged /repaired 'hull scratched ... with cracks ....', on Catalina Island ....'which has pebbles' and this might back up pics kindly supplied above with no scratching but severe compressional rupturing all along main 2/3 (?) of (Port) hull beneath waterline - Not quite what the Ebay.com advert discloses IMO!

Boat is afloat and was apparently sailed last Sunday, agent not sure of engine condition with the (new) 30hp engine. In other words it needs a thorough engineers and marine surveyors report.

However I was sent:

Surveyors report dated 5/9/2010 so after the event/ repair. This is available from broker or try http://www.schulzsurveyors.com Vessel is listed by them as CF5573TB

The surveyors report doesn’t look complete, could find no osmosis / moisture meter readings taken at all or reference to previous damage at all.... and not easy if boat afloat! .... Hull : '.......... appears sound' with LOTS of normal surveyor caveats!

There was also surveyors disapproval at '..outrigger diagonals are not laid properly and bent too sharp.....' and mention of engine mechanic required to 'check alignment ' ( Done by Marine Aqua services)

Before proceeding any further one might want to view:
1. Damage / repair bill receipts

2. GRP repairer/contact details and as important their accreditations to international standard.

Consider these points important as any surveyor, owner or re-sales agent should, regarding a boat that has suffered water ingress, and this clearly has.

The inner Divinicell foam has probably been compromised even at bow, (while towing?), and significantly the nature of the compressional fracturing caused along the main 2/3rd to the boats (Port) bottom hull side is akin to a soft boiled egg being cracked,so one might expect repair to be absolutely competent and structurally compliant.

Impending water ingress would have possibly affected entire inner foam, this can intake and retain salt water but I think not like sponge... and that would not be good.

'Hi-Tech yacht builders always seal the foam, usually with a mix of Q-cell and aerosil mixed with what ever resin system was used'. Believe that water adsorption is up to first closed foam holes or 2%.

Q. If not fully dried out what affect might this have over the years?

Any purchaser would want to know what measures were put in place regarding:

A) Was boat flushed with fresh water and thoroughly dried out before repair and moisture check ascertained prior to closure?

B) Removal and replacement with same marine grade Divinicell foam and associated bonding to foam, stringers etc to an international approved standard of workmanship for re-insurance purposes.

C) Make good same GRP layers , cover and fair and gelcoat etc for re-insurance purposes

P.S. Anyone thinking of purchase and ship to EU Europe is an additional $13700 or so (to Belgium) and then..... add the 20% Value added tax (VAT) AND additional import duty......
Last edited by Feathercraft on Sat 14 Apr 12, 14:57, edited 1 time in total.
'Tread water-smiling'
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

Feathercraft, I don't disagree with your cautions but there are a points where I have questions:

The image posted above on the right is titled portcloseup.jpg so your comment about starboard damage might be off base. It's difficult to determine extent of damage and locations on the hull, due to lack of visual clues for perspective. A zoomed-out picture port and starboard would be helpful but we don't have the benefit of those.

The area of the damaged bow eye might be solid FRP. I think it was Steve who noted above that this boat used to have a bow platform, and if so it too might have been damaged from towing. It would have had a rigid bobstay attached to the bow eye point.

As to your comment about stringers, you won't find many in a Dragonfly. The engine beds have stringers, but other than that Dragonfly boats rely on structural bulkheads, shape, and stiff cored composite panels for integrity. The areas along about 1/3 to 1/2 meter of centerline are solid FRP (to allow the boats to dry out), the bows, rudder post areas, and propeller skeg, centerboard area and waterstay attachment areas are also solid FRP.

Repair of a thin-skinned foam sandwich hull is tricky but it can be done by a skilled fiberglass person. I don't know if it's possible to do properly without access to both sides of the panels being repaired, but in this case it appears from the photos on eBay that the original liner is still intact. Ideally, if the person who did the repairs documented them (and was available for questions) it would be very helpful to a perspective buyer/surveyor. No doubt there might have been decisions made in repair that involved practical compromises.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Feathercraft
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri 13 Apr 12, 11:22
Your Country: UK, Plymouth.

Post by Feathercraft »

Hi Larry

Many thanks should have looked ref Port/stbd pics and thank you for explaining what lies inside here!

There may well be as you say no foam behind this bow point.

Agree difficult to ascertain nature of repair but reasonably sure that this has been sailed recently and surveyors report assumes market value on 5/9/09 at $134K subject to 'all recommendations completed'.


One might also assume that the repair was carried out to a professional standard by qualified yard and they would be very useful point of contact.
'Tread water-smiling'
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Other comments from memory

Post by Steve B. »

I don't have any more pictures (although I used to). but as I remember there were none of the starboard side.
I think it's safe to assume the damage was limited to the port side of the main hull.

The other photos were wide shots, with bedding hanging out of the cracks in an attempt to slow ingress of water.
The settee cushions look new, and I faintly remember the originals were stuffed into the holes as well.
Both vertical sides of the settee bases look like they have been painted (to cover water staining?)
Ours are faced with teak.

Ivan (EarthBM) who posts here has a DF35 and I'll be helping him sail it from Whidbey Island in Puget Sound to Newport Beach California in late May.
He lives down there and has seen the DF1000 in person, so you might get some better information on repair quality etc.
I'll ask him to chime in.
EarthBM
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri 17 Sep 10, 0:54
Your Country: USA, So Cal -- So Florida

Post by EarthBM »

I saw the boat in the fall of 2010. I couldn't see the hull repair below the waterline. The bobstay eye was still bent and looked like it just had some filler added into the cracks around it and then gelcoated over. I asked the broker for any documentation about hull repair, and where it was made, and he told me it was repaired by the new owner himself.

I could not start the engine, was told that there was some electric issue with it. The engine did not look new, but was clean and apparently freshly pained.

I ended up buying a more expensive DF 35, 1200 Nm away.
Ivan -- DF 35 #29 "Lykke"
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

Good eye Steve (noticing the painted settee bases). Yes they were teak originally. Considering the galley cabinet is still teak, maybe the repairs involved removing the seat base (and maybe the raised cabin sole too on port side) to gain access to the inside of the hull panel?
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
BEEMERCLINT
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed 22 Aug 12, 5:28
Your Country: California, San Francisco

California Dragonfly

Post by BEEMERCLINT »

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You all for your comments on the sunken California Dragonfly! You guys saved me from spending my life savings on a piece of CRAP!!! Unfortunately, I'm out a plane ticket, survey, and a haul-out. Neither the owner or the broker was upfront about the damage. Ben Sabage said the boat was "beached" and the owner provided pictures of "minimal damage". Nothing like the photos posted here. Interestingly enough at haul-out the boat weighed well over 8000#. That's a lot of resin! If anyone is crazy enough to buy this boat I strongly encourage you to contact me for the long winded story of my fiasco with the broker. My next stop is the CYBA website to file a serious complaint against Mason Yachts International. Mark Mason should have his Broker's license revoked for the scam his boys are trying to pull. Buyer be-extremely-ware!!! I can be reached at: CLINTONJROGERS@COMCAST.NET.
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