New Dragonfly 25 released on Düsseldorf Boot

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Anders B
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New Dragonfly 25 released on Düsseldorf Boot

Post by Anders B »

Cool boat - I would like to have one, but the pricetag is not for my budget :-)
100.000,- euro plus vat for the racing version.
https://www.baadnyt.dk/nyheder/dragonfl ... nspremiere
Anders Brandt
DF 25 Smultronbris
Stefan Kolmodin
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

I agree - nice look - but more speed and comfort in my old DF800R which makes the price tag extreme.
Would have liked a bit more:
- Space in the cabin with four ok berths
- Sail area for performance
Just one ok berth in the front in this boat (?)
DF800R, SWE-257
Anders B
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Post by Anders B »

I have to disagree with You Stefan regarding the speed. This beauty has a carbon rig of 11.80 meter which is 30 cm shorter than Your 800 R. But since it's a carbon mast she will be able to carry and control a much bigger top.
Most important is that the boat is designed to sail on one float alone(150% bouancy, rudder on each float), which will give the boat a huge advantage when the wind goes above 6-8 m/s.
Anders Brandt
DF 25 Smultronbris
Stefan Kolmodin
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

Still missing a lot of sail area and she's not designed to fly her center hull according to Jens

"The floats will have 160% volume. This means the boat can easily fly the centerhull, not that this is the purpose, as the boat will be fastest when the centerhull is just airborne."

I Think it'll come down to kgs/m2 - my boat carries 100 m2 (main + gennaker) downwind and 59 m2 (main + X-screecher) upwind - Bring her on 8)
DF800R, SWE-257
Christian
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Amas

Post by Christian »

Looked at the pictures of the new DF25 - amas look quite slim. Are they slimmer than the amas on a DF800?
zacu
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New Dragonfly 25 released on Düsseldorf Boot

Post by zacu »

Saw this in the flesh yesterday at Boot 2015. Some thoughts about these topics and my overall impressions (for what they are worth).

Firstly, it seemed to be built very, very light. I would have thought that it is probably even lighter than what it really was (1050kg?).

I guess most of that weight goes to the floats and structures handling all the forces. For example, the overall interior feel was far more plain than, say, DF28. You could also see more less-treated surfaces. The boat is clearly a day or weekend sailer, as the DF800 has maybe more attempt to accommodate a bit longer sailing stretches, let alone a DF28. This is for the people who mostly focus on sailing and stay outside.

My hunch also was that this individual was probably also left a bit more plain and with small amount of extras because of the time pressure. They told me that it just tightly made it to display and it had never seen water. Right after the show, they were planning to start the test sails. These days this does not mean so much, I guess, as the design can be simulated on computer so well.

The floats were rather striking. Indeed very sharp in the nose and long, which may make them look thinner than they are. Also very notable difference to DF28 and DF32 right next to it was the backward tiliting tip.

My feel was that with this shape, the drag is super low and the asymmetric shape combined with 160% volume will produce so much hydrodynamic lift that it will carry the boat like no DF before. Just comparing mast height is not enough, especially as the final sail configuration is still under design.

To my understanding, it is kinda designed to fly the middle hull, but the point Jens made is that it is optimal "just out of the water". AFAIK that means that the middle hull just kisses the water and no longer produces drag, but the sail area is still in the best use and the centre board is still doing its job. Further tilting would require boards to the floats and sails will become smaller to the wind.

In terms of speed, just imagine all that: A very light boat with the crew's weight on the other float, the middle hull little above the water and the other completely new generation float cutting the water like razor. One can press it so much further that it must go like stink. My guess is that in most conditions it will leave DF800R far in its wake, the philosophy behind it is so different. Didn't they speak of projected speeds around 23 knots somewhere?

Other notable and not-so-traditional-DF impressions outside were mostly related to the two rudders thing. For example, the speedos were installed on the side of the cabin and the nets had these inbuilt pouches for rope storage on both sides, where the crew can stuff them during sailing.

Speaking of the potential worries (justified or not, only my impressions). The mechanism connecting the rudders felt maybe a little "forced". It probably works just fine, but as the boat felt so slick otherwise, it was maybe a tad inelegant. Also the interior is not near DF28 by any means. Lower, tighter and narrower, as one would expect from the smaller size and the racer/daysailer vibe. Good move for them to shift the centerboard to the side to save space. Still, the interior was a tad dissappointing, as I think the DF28 is so successful hybrid with all the functionality and beautiful clean design feel.

Curiously waiting to see how it sails and if this will still evolve. Maybe some of the details will still be revisited during production and the single rudder version will be interesting to see in comparison.
Christian
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First rudders, then centerboard

Post by Christian »

Now rudders are moved out to amas, wonder when centerboard will go to amas too. It will make cabin design easier. Is there any sailing drawbacks with centerboards on amas?

It will be more things to move around each tack, one board down another up. Any other?
moilanen.a
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Post by moilanen.a »

Now rudders are moved out to amas, wonder when centerboard will go to amas too. It will make cabin design easier. Is there any sailing drawbacks with centerboards on amas?

It will be more things to move around each tack, one board down another up. Any other?
If you move the boards to amas you loose the kick up system too.

Can someone confirm if the price is right on the first post? 100k€+ VAT for the racing version? I have only read about the cruising version which was around 70k€+VAT
Ex. DF800
Christian
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Why lose kick up?

Post by Christian »

If it is possible to build a kick up system in the aka - why should it be impossible to build it in akas?
Stefan Kolmodin
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

I've asked both Quorning and Dragonfly Sweden about the price without any answer (yet) but here's my estimate:
Cruisng with main & jib = 70K€ which equals 87,5 K€ incl VAT (Swedish)
Sport version +20% (guess) = 105 K€
Screecher = 3500 €
Gennaker = 4000 €
Electronics = 2500 €
Trailer = 7500 €
Race ready Sport version total = 122,5 K€

Strange that they have sold 12 boats (10 already in October 2014) without price (and sail areas)? Maybe special deals to local dealers?

About (kickup) foils in amas I guess it'd be possible (faster?) but this would increase loads on beams, weight and price (too) much.

About which is faster - 25 year old 800R (special) or this brand new DF25 Sport it'd be sad if the newer wouldn't come out on top. DF25 look faster on paper and I'm looking forward to race it in reality. Anyway we don't race scratch :-)
DF800R, SWE-257
Christian
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Still centerboard questions

Post by Christian »

On the drawings of the new DF25, the centerboard is not centered! Looks like 20 cm to port! Is that a drawing mistake or reality?
And if so, why?
Stefan Kolmodin
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

They have put it in port berth to get enough floor space for one foot. In a pic with Jen Q and one other guy they can't sit normally opposite to each other. It's a narrow boat! https://www.baadnyt.dk/nyheder/trimaran-video-interview
Too small and expensive for me.
DF800R, SWE-257
zacu
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Joined: Sun 17 Dec 06, 12:42
Your Country: Finland, Espoo

Post by zacu »

Indeed, as Stefan wrote, it really was the only possible move to shift the centreboard to the side. If there would have been a casing in the middle, it would have been impossible to walk past to reach the front cabin.

Now that the usual casing was missing, the middle table system was arranged with an hinged single "arm" that held the table. One could swing the arm and the table to the side when it was not in use and to be able to pass by. Not my favorite, to be honest.

As said, it really felt much more cramped than a DF28. Not only it is narrow, it is also pretty low, which may be the biggest contributing factor. The near-standing height in DF28 makes it so much roomier, in here, you had to hunch down clearly.

As said, I think it will sail beautifully. But the most traditional DF approach of the boats also being pretty livable was less present here. This was much more a thoroughbred racer.

I guess it makes sense with the twin rudder and all — a racer. It remains to be seen if the cruising version will have a bit more creature comforts.
Stefan Kolmodin
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Joined: Mon 08 Nov 10, 21:50
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

The really smart Lagun table worked fine in my previous boat - SK55 SWE-7. Would be interesting though to someone trying to use the toilet under the front V-berth talk about hunching :-)
DF800R, SWE-257
Anders B
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Joined: Sat 18 Nov 06, 9:49
Your Country: Denmark, Aarhus

Post by Anders B »

I find it very strange that some compare the DF25 to the DF28 in this thread. The two boats can't be compared since the 28 is 3 feet longer and 50% more expensive. The 25 was designed as a daycruiser/racer that should be fun to sail and race, AND also have a lower price tag. I could afford the 25 but not the 28.
Anders Brandt
DF 25 Smultronbris
Stefan Kolmodin
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

I agree, the 25 is a daysailer possible to sleep in and the 28 is a family cruiser possible to race with.
DF800R, SWE-257
zacu
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Post by zacu »

Gentlemen, if you are referring to me, I compared these to underline the differences in the nature of the boats — I was trying to make the very same point, which you also made. :-)

Obviously, It's a cool and extremely desirable boat — I can't wait to hear how she sails and feels.
Stefan Kolmodin
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Joined: Mon 08 Nov 10, 21:50
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

Got the pricelist and a DF25 Sport ready to race with some comfort stuff like cushions to sleep on sprayhood and cockpit tent making it possible to cruise with - it's 133 406 €
DF800R, SWE-257
Stefan Kolmodin
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Post by Stefan Kolmodin »

DF800R, SWE-257
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