General US sources for replacing and repairing gear

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cogniz
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue 02 Dec 14, 4:02
Your Country: USA, Savannah, GA

General US sources for replacing and repairing gear

Post by cogniz »

Finally had time to dive into SW800 (she's unnamed at this point) this weekend.
I'm in the hunt for rigging clevis pins and Andersen ST12 winch parts (Starboard side...the top pate broke in half, just under the tailing plate).
Trampoline replacement (in the next year or 2 max).

Any guidance on sourcing parts is very appreciated.
Radford Harrell
SW800 #242
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

Defender for pins and winch service kit.

The annual sale is coming up in 2 days. Place your order then for everything. Don't forget bottom paint, gas stabilizer, filters, toilet repair kit, etc... Start counting your boat bucks ($1000) :(.

If the winch is really broken, get in touch with Richard.

Don't rush to replace the tramps. They last and last. The will need restitching, all new straps, new bolt rope, etc. Still, a lot cheaper than new. Find a local canvas person or sail-maker. You will need them.

Or purchase an industrial sewing machine (like I did) and do it yourself.

If you decide on new tramps - search this forum. There is a place in FL that makes them. Compare the price to new from the factory. The dollar is very high against the euro, so original parts will be more affordable.
Steve B.
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Restitching Trampolines

Post by Steve B. »

My DF1000 trampolines needed restitching about every two years here in the Pacific Northwest.

The first time, I paid to have it done.
The job was done not on time, had crappy workmanship and it cost double the estimate !

The next couple of times, I did it myself with UV sail thread.
It's not a fun job, but I managed with a home sewing machine.
After getting tired of the thread rotting again every couple of years, I purchased a big spool of Gore Tex thread also called Tenara. http://www.sailrite.com/
It's expensive, but extremely strong, lasts forever and is guaranteed never to rot.
You really have to crank up the machine's tension !!
I've used it for lots of other things since repairing the mats.
That was about 7 or 8 years ago and the mats look like I stitched them yesterday.
cogniz
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue 02 Dec 14, 4:02
Your Country: USA, Savannah, GA

wisdom

Post by cogniz »

gminkovsky and Steve...
Thanks for your input. Truly valuable.

I did get in on the Defender sale. Not quite the kitchen sink but saved a few bucks.
On the nets, I did ask around here in Savannah for a sail loft or someone that does canvas work and I think there is one place left. I'll have to check on them after the summer. I hope the current nets can wait as my kids and wife can't wait to get on the water.
The Gore Tex thread sounds intriguing.

More questions as they come up. Thank you both again.
Radford Harrell
SW800 #242
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
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Post by gminkovsky »

Lucky you in Georgia! We had snow on Saturday and today again.

Come to New York (when it gets warmer) - I will show you everything!

Make yourself a spreadsheet with all items that you need every spring, every fall, and all other that come up occasionally. If you need it once, you will need it again (and again, and again....)

Make another spreadsheet with all the tasks that you need to perform every time you go sailing. every launch and every haul-out. Every time I had a problem, I put it into my list of things to do. I try to only make a mistake once...

And double-check everything a couple of times.....

Check the tramps thoroughly. If the stitching disintegrates when the boat is in the water, it's a major pain to repair by hand.

You can ask your canvas/sail person to restitch with Tenara. They will just charge you extra. Or you may need to buy a cone of Tenara and let them use it for this work and take it home when done. Do it preemptively!
cogniz
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue 02 Dec 14, 4:02
Your Country: USA, Savannah, GA

Post by cogniz »

Excellent wisdom gminkovsky, thank you.

I got the mast about 60% up and realized I'd end up snagging some Life Oak branches on the way up. So back down it went. But very encouraged.

I'll have to more closely inspect the nets. I hope to get this season out of them but to your point, Savannah should be year round sailing practically. But I might have to take you up on your offer to educate me. My business partner lives in Kings Park.

On a side note, where would you source halyard lines? Looks like the Main is pealing the exterior off in a couple of places. Also, hatch seals? I"m sure these are original.

Thanks for all of your input. I'm encouraged to be sure.
Radford Harrell
SW800 #242
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

The best sources for ropes are Defender, West Marine when it's on sale. If the cover is damaged I recommend replacing ASAP. Search in the forum on what happened when my halyard broke under way. The cost of the rope was much less than the cost of the rigger with crane to replace the halyard with mast up. (and you can't take the mast down without a halyard!)

There are a lot of discussions on the forum about rope covers being damaged. Read all of it. You should never release the rope clutch when the line is under tension because that damages the cover. Also UV and point loads damage the ropes. Also, you will find my descriptions on how to put additional cover on the halyard at load points.

You really need to inspect all lines. Dyneema lasts forever if the cover is not damaged. Any lines with damage should be replaced. Polyester lines do wear out. I had to replace jib sheets, rudder uphaul and various miscellaneous lines.

On my boat main halyard, reef lines, swing lines, board up/down and preventers are Dyneema (or other high tech). All other lines are polyester. I had an opportunity to buy Dyneema on sale at West Marine. I bought enough in different sizes a few years ago and used up most of it already!

Check West Marine clearance section especially in early winter.

If Dyneema is too expensive you can use other high tech rope for the halyard. West Marine catalog has excellent section which describes various rope usages. Just find another high tech rope with similar stretch and load numbers. Double braid is best as the rope cover protects from UV damage. Also, you can get the rope either in metric or in nearest inch measures. My Dyneema is metric; all polyester, nylon and other high tech ropes that I bought are in inches.

I don't know much about hatch seals. The original replacement parts for the hatches are RIDICULOUSLY expensive. In one of the threads about hatch handles and locks there is a mention of a US dealer (not OEM) that had more reasonable prices for handles. I think you should check with him.

Kings Park is 35 mins from me... It's also about 1 hour from Port Washington where there is an 800 sailed year round by 3 guys. Not sure what happened this winter as all harbors were completely frozen.

You should also check with Richard S. - he can tell you where are the nearest DF owners in your area.
cogniz
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue 02 Dec 14, 4:02
Your Country: USA, Savannah, GA

disaster averted

Post by cogniz »

Wheeww...
So much to learn. I'm thankful for your warning about the main halyard sheathing. I've stopped the mast raising process and waiting for new line from Defender...I opted for the middle of the road cost/performance line.
Thank you for the warning!

I'm moving on to rebuilding winches, checking all the other lines, figuring out what the foul cabin smell is (and how to remove it), electrical checks, etc...

On the standing rigging, do you tweak it yourself? If so, do you use a tension gauge? I'm sure the rigging is original and I hope to get a few more years out of it...not pushing her hard in that time of course.
Radford Harrell
SW800 #242
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

Not much to tweak in standing rigging. Don't touch the diamonds on the mast - they should have been properly tuned at original install. If you want to touch them - get a gauge and follow Quorning specs.

The forestay is not adjustable. The back stay is two part: the long part goes to the eye on the ama on the outside. The short part attaches to the eye on the inside of the ama, just behind the rear wings with blocks and the line leads into cockpit. You adjust the tension by hand or winch based on conditions: hand tight in light airs; on the winch with one hand in strong winds. That's it! I use a tape measure to make sure that both sides of adjustable back stay are the same. I also usually adjust them pretty tight for everyday sailing. So I only need to tighten if the wind is above 15 kn.

Don't forget to adjust the waterstays! That is actually, IMO, the most difficult job. Follow the manual; leave cotter pins just barely bent. When the boat is in the water and open, check the tension and adjust right in the water. Then bend the cotter pins completely. You will not need to adjust again until you remove the waterstays.

I suggest you have a rigger take a look at your rigging and confirm that all looks good. There were a few cases of dismasting due to failed forestay - search the forum.

About the smell - does it smell like toilet smell in other boats? If so, look up Larry's post on head smells. If it smells like something else then investigate. Also, smell the hoses on the outside.
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

I should add that there is one report of dismasting due to back stay failure: first the all-wire backstay failed, then the adjustable part failed. Just search the forum for description.

Basically, anything that is safety related should be inspected and replaced preemptively.

While you are checking, also check the folding system wire and rope. You don't want that to fail. All newer boat models have a secondary system to prevent folding when primary system fails. 800 and 920 do not have it. Many owners implemented their own version. There are a couple that are described in the forum. I don;t remember if I posted a description of my own system, but I also made one (not too expensive, without a rigger or fibreglass work.) Let me know if I should post it.
TC
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Joined: Fri 31 Dec 10, 20:26
Your Country: USA, Sedro-Woolley

Adjusting the waterstays

Post by TC »

Found a bunch of different forum entries regarding waterstay adjustment, mostly along the lines of "This is what Bob told me" or "This is how I saw Arnie do it when I took delivery." This is the first I've seen:

"Follow the manual; leave cotter pins just barely bent. When the boat is in the water and open, check the tension and adjust right in the water. Then bend the cotter pins completely. You will not need to adjust again until you remove the waterstays."

The DF 1000 manual does not mention how to adjust the waterstays. Would you post an official "This is what the manual says to do"? Please! After all, what is the proper tension?

--------------------- The Compiled Forum Wisdom ------------------
One must keep in mind when adjusting the water stays, that the boat is typically out of the water and the amas are without support. Gravity takes out 100% of the slack, so there is nothing to be gained by adding stress to the structure (pulling in the downward direction).

With that in mind, my goal is to remove all slack from the water stays, without putting them in tension. The way to accomplish this is to adjust them to a point where some slight increase of resistance is felt at the very end when opening the amas all the way, then back off 1/2 turn on the adjustment.

You will find that this will keep the water stays without visible slack, but allow you to deflect the cables slightly by hand. From that point, it is a question of feel and judgment, trying to get the tension even between fore and aft water stays. If you think there is a quarter-turn decision to be made between balancing both fore and aft, go with the slightly tighter setting. You don't want them to go slack.

To tighten, screw the stay clockwise if you are facing the ama from the center hull. Try a few complete turns, replace the clevis and then open the ama fully. If it becomes just slightly difficult to open all the way, you are at the right tension. If it is very difficult you have it too tight, and if you feel no resistance at all before it is fully open you have it too loose. Fine-tune by making your adjustments in half-turns.

Another:
Ama Nuts (Pivot nuts?): Your ama securing nuts should be tight, but not so tight that they make it difficult to open the amas (no need to back-off 1/2 turn unless they're too tight).

Another:
I have found the easiest way to adjust for proper waterstay tension on my DF1000 is to unfold the boat almost all the way with the boat in the water.

Leave about a ten degree angle from fully unfolded.

With both sides in this position, adjust the waterstays so the main hull pin can be inserted by hand.

Adjust all of them, then unfold the boat the rest of the way.

This will give decent aka support during sailing while at the same time allowing easy folding/unfolding.

If the waterstays are too tight, it will put stress on the chainplates, as well as the aka hinges.

The ama hinge studs need to be adjusted so there's no slop, but also not so tight that you get binding. The boat should not be difficult to fold or unfold.


Yet another (920):
I am in the midle of the thread re saftey /movment of the arms. and am new to the Df sailing.

However Arnie delivered my boat and put it together and I followed what he did. The stays when on the trailer were set up to be very tight but not so that you could not push the amas out by simpley pushing from the back. Arnie put his full weight on them to check for any slack and took up half a turn at a time until it was difficult to open out.
And as you say the pivot pionts also as thight as possible without any friction. wax polish on the plastic bearing helps.

He also jumped on the tramps when about 1 cm left to fully open, it closes the last gap nicely, but I still dont know how tight to winch the outhaul as anything other than 2 hands full on and the amsa move a lot when into a head sea.I dont know how much movment is ok though and as the struts had very oval holes it was clear the previous onwer had plenty of movement.

If anyone has links to the factory it would be very nice to know thier thoughts on this as it is clear that many owners are not fully sure what goes on in this area, why were the struts not designed to push fully against the rear arm to take away any movment ???
TC

Formerly of:
Strider
DF 1000 #17
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Re: Adjusting the waterstays

Post by Double Horizon »

TC wrote:Found a bunch of different forum entries regarding waterstay adjustment, mostly along the lines of "This is what Bob told me" or "This is how I saw Arnie do it when I took delivery." This is the first I've seen:

"Follow the manual; leave cotter pins just barely bent. When the boat is in the water and open, check the tension and adjust right in the water. Then bend the cotter pins completely. You will not need to adjust again until you remove the waterstays."

The DF 1000 manual does not mention how to adjust the waterstays. Would you post an official "This is what the manual says to do"? Please! After all, what is the proper tension?

--------------------- The Compiled Forum Wisdom ------------------
One must keep in mind when adjusting the water stays, that the boat is typically out of the water and the amas are without support. Gravity takes out 100% of the slack, so there is nothing to be gained by adding stress to the structure (pulling in the downward direction).

With that in mind, my goal is to remove all slack from the water stays, without putting them in tension. The way to accomplish this is to adjust them to a point where some slight increase of resistance is felt at the very end when opening the amas all the way, then back off 1/2 turn on the adjustment.

You will find that this will keep the water stays without visible slack, but allow you to deflect the cables slightly by hand. From that point, it is a question of feel and judgment, trying to get the tension even between fore and aft water stays. If you think there is a quarter-turn decision to be made between balancing both fore and aft, go with the slightly tighter setting. You don't want them to go slack.

To tighten, screw the stay clockwise if you are facing the ama from the center hull. Try a few complete turns, replace the clevis and then open the ama fully. If it becomes just slightly difficult to open all the way, you are at the right tension. If it is very difficult you have it too tight, and if you feel no resistance at all before it is fully open you have it too loose. Fine-tune by making your adjustments in half-turns.

Another:
Ama Nuts (Pivot nuts?): Your ama securing nuts should be tight, but not so tight that they make it difficult to open the amas (no need to back-off 1/2 turn unless they're too tight).

Another:
I have found the easiest way to adjust for proper waterstay tension on my DF1000 is to unfold the boat almost all the way with the boat in the water.

Leave about a ten degree angle from fully unfolded.

With both sides in this position, adjust the waterstays so the main hull pin can be inserted by hand.

Adjust all of them, then unfold the boat the rest of the way.

This will give decent aka support during sailing while at the same time allowing easy folding/unfolding.

If the waterstays are too tight, it will put stress on the chainplates, as well as the aka hinges.

The ama hinge studs need to be adjusted so there's no slop, but also not so tight that you get binding. The boat should not be difficult to fold or unfold.


Yet another (920):
I am in the midle of the thread re saftey /movment of the arms. and am new to the Df sailing.

However Arnie delivered my boat and put it together and I followed what he did. The stays when on the trailer were set up to be very tight but not so that you could not push the amas out by simpley pushing from the back. Arnie put his full weight on them to check for any slack and took up half a turn at a time until it was difficult to open out.
And as you say the pivot pionts also as thight as possible without any friction. wax polish on the plastic bearing helps.

He also jumped on the tramps when about 1 cm left to fully open, it closes the last gap nicely, but I still dont know how tight to winch the outhaul as anything other than 2 hands full on and the amsa move a lot when into a head sea.I dont know how much movment is ok though and as the struts had very oval holes it was clear the previous onwer had plenty of movement.

If anyone has links to the factory it would be very nice to know thier thoughts on this as it is clear that many owners are not fully sure what goes on in this area, why were the struts not designed to push fully against the rear arm to take away any movment ???
I have owned Dragonfly boats since 2001. A 920/1000/1200. The first section of the above in bold text starting with "One must keep in mind when adjusting the water stays" ending with "Fine-tune by making your adjustments in half-turns." is my prior post.

My reactions to the above:
1) Based on the description, I think Arne was putting far too much tension on the water stays.
2) Nobody should "jump" on the nets.
3) There should be no allowance for movement fore-aft of the swing wing hinges when the boat is fully opened. Fully opened means just that -- they cannot open any more. If there is movement with the struts locked then they need to be replaced and you should also consider adding stays for additional security between the aka ends and a forward point on the center hull. (This can be to the bow from the forward beam ends, or to the base of the forward crossbeam from the aft beam ends.)
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
gminkovsky
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Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
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Post by gminkovsky »

As I said before, I think waterstays adjustment is the most difficult part of rigging.

Here is a direct quote from 920 manual:

WATERSTAYS:
There are two long stays for the forward wings and two short ones for the aft wings. The thread part of the waterstay you turn into the big stainless steel fitting in the end of the wing where the ama is mounted. Then you adjust the waterstay so that when a person pushes down on the float you can put the pinbolt through the fork terminal by the centre hull, just so that the waterstay is well hand-tight, it must not feel “loose”. The waterstays must be checked regularly to make sure they have the correct tension and are free from failures.


My own addition, based on recommendation from Richard S, is to finalize adjustment when the boat is in the water.

I changed waterstays 2 times, and once I removed amas. So I did waterstay adjustment 3 times. My wife and I tried at least 4-5 settings on each waterstay before finalizing. Then, when the boat was opened, I compared the tension side to side and front to back and adjusted some waterstays 1-2 times more! Final check was in the water.

After all adjustments, I still find that it is relatively easy to open the first ama, but always difficult to open the second ama, irrespective which side is first. Walking on trampolines or putting a person on the ama helps.
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Post by Double Horizon »

George, Richard was joking -- he really just wanted to see you get in the water. :D

(I'm just kidding).
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

And now I trying to "pay it forward" to TC and Radford :wink: !
cogniz
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue 02 Dec 14, 4:02
Your Country: USA, Savannah, GA

Mast Up! Now what...kidding.

Post by cogniz »

First, I'm indebted to all of the wisdom you've condensed on this thread. Thank you all.

After wrestling with Oak tree branches 40 feet above the trailer (2 attempts to step the mast stopped at 90%) I moved the boat back in the driveway and started winching away. 10 minutes later, the mast dropped quietly into position...it was lovely.

I stared at the foot of the mast for about a minute until my wife asked, Now What? I realized I had no clue as I'd not read the manual past this point! It's the little wins I suppose.

I used the jib halyard to create a slight tension on the rigging and released them from the mast raising aid. I then attached the LONG cable to the chain plate aft of the ama hatch (outboard) on each side.

So what do I do with the short cable? I believe some part of the standing rigging attaches to the chain plate aft of the aft aka? Some sort of block and line for underway adjusting?? I can't find clarity in the manual nor a drawing.

So once again I bow at the counsel here for wisdom...

On a side note, know you have all invested in the future of my family as it's all I can do to keep the boys off the boat while this learning curve is tackled. I think I'll let them sleep in the cabin this weekend just for fun...so thanks again.
Radford Harrell
SW800 #242
gminkovsky
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

You may have missed it in my explanation of standing rigging tuning above. The short part of backstay is attached to the inboard chainplate on the ama just behind rear wings using a multi-part block and tackle. There should be 2 blocks and line for each side. The line then goes through a rope clutch on the wing (at least on a 920) and into the cockpit and is used to adjust the tension of the backstay. Look for a set of two blocks that together make 3:1 or 4:1 tackle.

Look at the pictures in the photo galleries - it will become clear immediately.
cogniz
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue 02 Dec 14, 4:02
Your Country: USA, Savannah, GA

photo..duh.

Post by cogniz »

Thanks G.
No idea why I did not think to go get a photo of the rigging. Yep, perfect sense and now that you've pointed this out, there was a bag of red and green line with tackle included in the boat. Now I know what they are for.

And your previous commentary about tuning now makes even more sense.

Game on.

rad
Radford Harrell
SW800 #242
TC
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri 31 Dec 10, 20:26
Your Country: USA, Sedro-Woolley

Thanks everyone!

Post by TC »

The above has been very useful. Nice to see a lot of discussion on this site.

I'm using 1/2" Plasma with 1/4" dyneema for the lashing and have done all the adjusting in the water. I've no idea how to do it out of the water...extending the ama on land doesn't invite a tip over? /s No need for an explanation....

Anyway, the initial side was in and out, adjust and more adjust as caution and stretching were the order of the day. The second side was much easier, extended the amas with about 18" to go, tighten the stay/lashing, then finish the extension. Could see the material stretch and tension, to the point where it may even over-center, assisting in holding the ama forward.

I found Paul Calder's synthetic line articles (part 1: http://www.sailfeed.com/2012/01/synthet ... s-anymore/) and Colligo's "how to splice videos" (http://www.colligomarine.com/gallery-do ... ice-videos) useful.
TC

Formerly of:
Strider
DF 1000 #17
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