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TC



Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 60
Location: USA, Sedro-Woolley

Losing Weight   Posted: Fri 25 Sep 15, 19:44    Reply with quote

This all started when I received a quote by Jens Quorning, forwarded by a friend exploring the DF 1000:

Quote:
"The DF 1000 was originally designed for coastal and offshore cruising. The DF 1000 is not designed and built as strong as our designs today where we today have much more knowledge in design and production. The DF 1000 was designed back in 1989/90. I cannot recommend the DF 1000 for ocean crossings or bluewater type sailing. The problem is that the boat is heavier than it was designed for."


The first thought was about the last line: "Heavier than designed for...." Understandable, but unsettling. The second thought was regarding how technology has changed since 1989/90. What is available now that wasn't available then? These beg the question: "How can weight be reduced and therefore improve performance and presumably, safety?"

For clarification, we owners do not seem to get much support from Quorning. Hell, the DF 1000 is not even on their website, nor is a support page. Sure, they will sell you something, if the stock is on hand and you want to pay their prices (45 euro for a closet hinge or $2200 for a set of waterstays). Forget engineering support. So I took this on myself. For further clarification, I've an Aerospace Engineering degree with structures being a focus. I've some practical experience. Further, I know how to research. That said, none of the below has any kind of certification. DISCLAIMER: I'd be happy to provide details, but if you follow, you are on your own.

Creature Comforts:
As Steve B has mentioned: We also fall prey to the creature comfort weight addition syndrome. A watermaker adds 60lbs. Food, utensils, tools, clothing, crab trap, fishing gear, cleaning supplies, a couple sails, stern tie, better wiring. You get the picture. All these things to make life easier or more comfortable, but a heavier boat. The easiest weight reduction is to purge your boat.

Hull:
The fiberglass and structural stainless steel are what they are. Unless one can replace stainless with titanium, there is very little to be done to reduce hull weight except ensure the non-hydrophobic foam core stays dry. If water can intrude, it will be absorbed by the foam, increasing the weight. So, to help prevent water intrusion, Strider's hatches and rails are being reseated using the technique explained in this Maine Cruising article (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware).

There are other small things. Like putting lightening holes in some of the wood panels. Lightening holes? 1-2in holes cut in the wood panels, making them look like swiss cheese. Like the panels in the V-berth, most of the panels are not structural, but are covers over storage areas. They can be 'holed' easily. While weight reduction is minor, the air circulation benefit is huge.

Replace 1/4in plexiglass windscreen with 1/8in acrylic. Replace vinyl and rubber water lines with PEX. With the exception of keeping the foam dry, the above are small things: a pound here, a couple ounces there.

Add-ons:
Replacing things external to the hull could have a bigger effect. This is where the latest technology really helps.

Strider came with 3 Optima Yellow Top batteries, one start and two house. I followed Steve B's example and replaced the 3x44 pound batteries with 4x12.5 pound (132lb vs 50lb), LiFEPO4 batteries. There is no dedicated start battery.

More weight reduction can be achieved by replacing stainless cables with synthetic line. The best part is I can do it on my own! I know there are those on this forum who do not like dyneema. I get it, but think the risks are worth it.

A note of caution: The cable replacement was not done all at once. Since something new can be risky on a sailboat, one step at a time. Paul Calder's articles (http://pcalder.blogspot.com/search/label/Dynex Dux?view=classic) on replacing stainless with synthetic were very helpful.

First, the waterstays were replaced. Essentially, one of the waterstay fittings was corroding and cracking and I balked at paying Quorning's price for replacements. New waterstays were fabricated after research into stainless vs Plasma break-strengths/stretch-characteristics, a local rigger's assistance to learn splicing first hand and locally acquired materials. Colligo Marine's lashing tie off instructions (http://www.7www.colligomarine.com/docs/misc/lashing_line_tie_ver_1_1.pdf) were followed and they allow for easy adjustment, which was necessary while the plasma/dyneema settled in. This took some time and I cringed when larger wakes and waves approached. 38 pound reduction.

Once satisfied, the nets and aka cables were next. While still not pretty, the net edge finishing is a work in progress, the Net-Systems Ultra Cross (http://www.net-sys.com/catamaran-netting/) was selected. I was concerned my dogs would not like the new net with the larger holes. The couldn't care less and may actually prefer it as one spends his time on the net now and not on the solar panel. Another 38 pound weight reduction.

As of this writing the backstays are being worked on, replacing the stainless and the blocks. While overkill in strength, 5/16" dyneema is used because its stretch characteristic is the same as the replaced stainless. While only partially complete, the 4:1 backstay adjustment system has yet to be replaced, the main section has been replaced using Colligo's chain plate distributor (http://www.colligomarine.com/products/colligo-value/chainplate-distributors/product/199-fork-distributor-1-2-pin-black-css61-f) at the bottom, a simple 8mm thimble at the top. The stay side adjustment block and large quick link between the upper and lower stay have been eliminated by using Colligo's double enhanced lashing block (http://www.7www.colligomarine.com/products/colligo-value/synthetic-systems/product/70-enhanced-double-lashing-block-5-7mm-black-css242). The upper and lower backstay components are spliced through the center of the block while the adjustment line goes around the outside. 22 pounds weight reduction.

Coming soon; the mast shrouds. Reducing this weight will reduce the weight aloft and decrease the hobby-horse effects.

To date, the weight reduction has been:

Stainless Cable Replacement:
Waterstays: 38 pounds
Aka: 2 pounds
Backstays: 22 pounds
Shrouds: Not yet....

Other Sources:
Batteries: 82 pounds
Nets: 38 pounds

Total: 184 pounds!

So, anyone else got some ideas?
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TC
Strider
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gminkovsky



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 189
Location: USA, Long Island Sound

   Posted: Fri 25 Sep 15, 20:45    Reply with quote

Sails. Some of the high tech sails weigh very little. Carbon fibre battens instead of fiberglass. Saves a lot of weight aloft.

anchors and chain: get aluminum anchors; reduce or eliminate chain; downsize the rope to the yale nylon brait 8-strand. put thimbles on both ends of the rode so you can easily increase length and carry 2 shorter rodes.

foul weather gear: get high-tech stuff that weighs half of regular.

dinghy: get the lightest dinghy and the lightest motor.

books: get rid off all of them and carry a kindle + android phone with all knots, navigation sw, etc.

laptop: same as books above

all chargers and inverters: keep 2 small USB chargers and get rid of everything that requires 110v.

change all lights to LED and get rid of 1 battery.

dogs: they weigh too much plus their food.

children: same as dogs above.
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gminkovsky



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   Posted: Fri 25 Sep 15, 20:53    Reply with quote

Is your mast aluminum? If so, switching to carbon will save A LOT!
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Stefan Kolmodin



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Sweden, Varmdo

   Posted: Fri 25 Sep 15, 21:19    Reply with quote

While you're at it - original centerboard and rudder are heavy as hell - replace with Carbon fibre one's Smile
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Steve B.



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
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Location: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Somebody's got to say it...   Posted: Sat 26 Sep 15, 0:59    Reply with quote

NO FAT CHICKS !
(unless they're really good crew)
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Double Horizon



Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 419
Location: USA

Re: Somebody's got to say it...   Posted: Sat 26 Sep 15, 14:17    Reply with quote

Steve B. wrote:
NO FAT CHICKS !
(unless they're really good crew)


Careful who you say that to. The next weight saving idea might be YOU (being pushed overboard). Sad
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Larry - DF-1200 Double Horizon
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EarthBM



Joined: 17 Sep 2010
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Location: USA, So Cal -- So Florida

   Posted: Sun 27 Sep 15, 16:50    Reply with quote

Thanks for the good detailed report!

Could you post pictures of the Net-Systems Ultra Cross trampoline?
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Ivan -- DF 35 #29 "Lykke"
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TC



Joined: 31 Dec 2010
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Location: USA, Sedro-Woolley

Thanks everyone!   Posted: Thu 01 Oct 15, 18:49    Reply with quote

...except Steve. Fat chicks are creature comforts!

I'm impressed at the speed of the responses. Not complaining, but are you that bored?

Got 60 pound Gig Harbor sailing dinghy. Got Fortress aluminum anchor with 40' 1/4in BB chain for initial rode, the rest is nylon line. Books are gone in favor of a nook and and ipad. Laptop and CPAP are the only 120volt appliances: Have a small, 150watt inverter for them. LED lights and LiFePO4 bats a long time ago. Dogs go on short excursions, too much pain in the ass for the long ones (still, my wife thinks of the dogs as creature comforts).

When I get rich instead of good looking, I'll look into carbon fiber items.

Ivan, pics: Yes. I've a big picture view, but no details as I'm still working out how to finish the edges.
Please click on any of the photos to see them enlarged!


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Strider
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Steve B.



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There's Comfort Fat, then there's FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT   Posted: Thu 01 Oct 15, 19:39    Reply with quote

I won't bore anyone with the details, but we had a FAAAAAAAAT guest (approx 5 feet 2 inches and 350 lbs) while cruising in Mexico and you wouldn't believe all the concessions we had to make to accomodate her.
Excuses abounded...

She is a dear friend, but we were really glad to see her leave after a week.

This was not on our Dragonfly, but a Lord Nelson 35 with a 10' RIB dinghy.

In my previous post, I should have said, "No FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT chicks."

Wink
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gminkovsky



Joined: 01 Nov 2006
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Location: USA, Long Island Sound

   Posted: Thu 01 Oct 15, 22:09    Reply with quote

@steveB: did you have to winch her in from the dinghy???? I just can't picture how she could climb into the boat.

I once had a guest on my 920 for a day sail. She is about 5'4" and ~200 lbs. She went for a swim by diving off the ama, but could not climb back up using our ridiculous standard swim ladder. She was losing strength and beginning to panic. Her husband had to push her up from below while 2 people were pulling her up from above.
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Steve B.



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You have the general picture !   Posted: Thu 01 Oct 15, 23:19    Reply with quote

I don't want to hijack the thread, but we had to push blubber from below.

Ewww... Embarassed
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Bo Wetzel
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 150
Location: UK, Penzance & France, Flayosc

Pictures of the netting   Posted: Fri 02 Oct 15, 16:26    Reply with quote

I've added the pictures of the netting (and the dog) to TC's post above.
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Double Horizon



Joined: 09 May 2007
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   Posted: Fri 02 Oct 15, 18:19    Reply with quote

Steve -
I'm curious who sewed your new nets. Was it a local canvas shop or sail maker? Or did you use a net specialist?
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Larry - DF-1200 Double Horizon
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Steve B.



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New Nets   Posted: Sat 03 Oct 15, 4:45    Reply with quote

TC is the one with the new nets.
Mine are original, but I personally resewed them with GoreTex Thread.
They'll probably last forever.
I will probably follow TC's lead on replacements after I see his.
His dog will probably vouch for their comfort!
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Double Horizon



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Re: New Nets   Posted: Sat 03 Oct 15, 5:00    Reply with quote

Steve B. wrote:
TC is the one with the new nets.
Mine are original, but I personally resewed them with GoreTex Thread.
They'll probably last forever.
I will probably follow TC's lead on replacements after I see his.
His dog will probably vouch for their comfort!


Yes I had mine sewn with Tenara thread also, and recently replaced the perimeter with vinyl-coated polyester fabric instead of the uncovered polyester edge materials that Quorning uses. These should last another 10 years or more.
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Larry - DF-1200 Double Horizon
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EarthBM



Joined: 17 Sep 2010
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Re: Thanks everyone!   Posted: Fri 09 Oct 15, 22:52    Reply with quote

TC wrote:
Ivan, pics: Yes. I've a big picture view, but no details as I'm still working out how to finish the edges.
Please click on any of the photos to see them enlarged!



Thanks for these -- seems doable. How did you make sure that the nets have tension before framing the edges up in webbing?
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TC



Joined: 31 Dec 2010
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   Posted: Wed 14 Oct 15, 22:50    Reply with quote

I cut the nets the same size/shape as the old nets.

The 1/4" dyneema edge was then woven through the net edges. The ends of the dyneema were then tucked into each other (chinese finger trap) then back out, leaving the bitter ends exposed. I could then adjust the tension by tugging on the bitter ends.
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Double Horizon



Joined: 09 May 2007
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   Posted: Thu 15 Oct 15, 3:52    Reply with quote

TC wrote:
I cut the nets the same size/shape as the old nets.

The 1/4" dyneema edge was then woven through the net edges. The ends of the dyneema were then tucked into each other (chinese finger trap) then back out, leaving the bitter ends exposed. I could then adjust the tension by tugging on the bitter ends.


How did you attach the wire rope perimeter and piping for the center hull?
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TC



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Center hull connection   Posted: Sat 15 Jul 17, 16:07    Reply with quote

Sorry so slow Larry, been overwhelmed with a few things....

I ran the 1/4in dyneema, threaded through the net right up the OEM channel.

Before running the combo up the channel, I placed a 1/2in outside diameter x 1in long with 1/4in interior diameter nylon spacer (home depot) at the forward edge, about where the OEM net would have ended. This prevents the forward edge from coming out of the channel.

I used the same technique in the inboard side of the channel on the ama.

On the hull aft, I replaced the triangular OEM stainless fitting with a couple stainless shackles. The shackles keep the 1/4in dyneema tight against the catwalk thus keeping the dyneema in the channel. Two shackles are used each side to provide a gentler curve for the dyneema.

Used a shackle on the outside edge of the ama.

After that, it is tension keeping it all in the channels.

I've finally figured out a decent way to clean up the edges. Sewing the net directly to the 1/4in dyneema roughly every 12in. Then, using a fid to pull the remaining loose ends through the 1/4in dyneema and a simple knot on the end. It is mostly tension keeping the net in place.
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