Extending Amas

including Amas (Floats), Akas (Beams) , Swing Wing system and all other hull related issues.
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Mal
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 16:48
Your Country: Wales

Extending Amas

Post by Mal »

The last few inches winching out my amas are very hard work. When the boat is out of the water ashore, I have set up the water stays to be fairly tight, and can easily push the amas in and out.

However, when in the water, I cannot winch the floats all the way out, but have to jump up and down on the tramp wires to close the gap between the beam and hull, and then winch in to the correct position. This is very hard work on the winch, and certainly cannot be done with just one handed winching, (which I noticed mentioned in another thread)

I notice that the water stays are then almost bar-taut, certainly tighter than they are when I set them up with the boat ashore. I suppose this is because some of the boat's weight is now being taken by the floats, rather than their hanging as they do when ashore. Do you think that my waterstays are too tight?

Also, any guidance on how tight the float securing nuts should be? I assume tighten until they nip, and then back off half a turn?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mal
DF920 Pelican, Swansea
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
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Re: Extending Amas

Post by Double Horizon »

Mal wrote:The last few inches winching out my amas are very hard work. When the boat is out of the water ashore, I have set up the water stays to be fairly tight, and can easily push the amas in and out.

However, when in the water, I cannot winch the floats all the way out, but have to jump up and down on the tramp wires to close the gap between the beam and hull, and then winch in to the correct position. This is very hard work on the winch, and certainly cannot be done with just one handed winching, (which I noticed mentioned in another thread)

I notice that the water stays are then almost bar-taut, certainly tighter than they are when I set them up with the boat ashore. I suppose this is because some of the boat's weight is now being taken by the floats, rather than their hanging as they do when ashore. Do you think that my waterstays are too tight?

Also, any guidance on how tight the float securing nuts should be? I assume tighten until they nip, and then back off half a turn?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mal
Mal -
You should loosen your waterstays 1/2 turn. Your ama securing nuts should be tight, but not so tight that they make it difficult to open the amas (no need to back-off 1/2 turn unless they're too tight).
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
buckle.roger
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Re: Extending Amas

Post by buckle.roger »

Mal wrote:The last few inches winching out my amas are very hard work. When the boat is out of the water ashore, I have set up the water stays to be fairly tight, and can easily push the amas in and out.

However, when in the water, I cannot winch the floats all the way out, but have to jump up and down on the tramp wires to close the gap between the beam and hull, and then winch in to the correct position. This is very hard work on the winch, and certainly cannot be done with just one handed winching, (which I noticed mentioned in another thread)

I notice that the water stays are then almost bar-taut, certainly tighter than they are when I set them up with the boat ashore. I suppose this is because some of the boat's weight is now being taken by the floats, rather than their hanging as they do when ashore. Do you think that my waterstays are too tight?

Also, any guidance on how tight the float securing nuts should be? I assume tighten until they nip, and then back off half a turn?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mal

Hi Mal

I am in the midle of the thread re saftey /movment of the arms. and am new to the Df sailing.

However Arnie delivered my boat and put it together and I followed what he did. The stays when on the trailer were set up to be very tight but not so that you could not push the amas out by simpley pushing from the back. Arnie put his full weight on them to check for any slack and took up half a turn at a time until it was difficult to open out.
And as you say the pivot pionts also as thight as possible without any friction. wax polish on the plastic bearing helps.

He also jumped on the tramps when about 1 cm left to fully open, it closes the last gap nicely, but I still dont know how tight to winch the outhaul as anything other than 2 hands full on and the amsa move a lot when into a head sea.I dont know how much movment is ok though and as the struts had very oval holes it was clear the previous onwer had plenty of movement.

If anyone has links to the factory it would be very nice to know thier thoughts on this as it is clear that many owners are not fully sure what goes on in this area, why were the struts not designed to push fully against the rear arm to take away any movment ???
Mal
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 16:48
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920 extending amas

Post by Mal »

Thanks to both replies.

I have backed off the tension on my front waterstays by one full turn, and the rear by half a turn. They are still taught;- can twang them just like a guitar string, but not bar-taught as they were before. A bit easier to winch out now, but still need to jump up and down on the rear wire going through the tramps to get the float fully out. I usually push the floats out three quarters of the way by standing on the lip on the side of the hull, facing inboard, and then push the float out with one foot whilst holding on to the handrail on the coachroof. I then nip back into the cockpit to start winching.

Don't understand the bit about setting the waterstays tight whilst on the trailer: that's how I did mine, and the floats would still push in and out easily whilst still on the trailer. Once in the water though, as per my earlier comments, very, very difficult to get the floats out the final few centimetres, and the waterstays were now bar-taut. Hence my earlier post.

I have adjusted and greased the pivot nuts and washers, and will re-spray the circular plastic tracks with teflon again when it stops raining here.

Don't think last contributor needs to worry about the floats seeming to flex up and down;- as I understand it, not only all Dragonflies, but all folding tris do;- F boats etc etc.

Went out single handed yesterday for the first time;- always had crew before. I have to lock out via sealock, so am folded going through, then open up floats, sail around for a couple of hours, and then fold up again to come into sea lock. Wiching floats in & out on your own is very hard work;- I was completely knackered! Winching floats in is actually longer hard work;- you have to winch all the way. I suppose that is because you are actually lifting the whole boat up when winching the floats in;- they move downwards as they come in, lifting the main hull up slightly.

We are really in the dark about how tight the waterstays etc should be;- owners handbook a bit vague;- insufficient information.

I am in complete agreement with last contributor about our needing input from the factory. Could Bo forward this stuff onto the factory, to see if they could help us?

There are comments from time to time on the forum about lack of input from owners. I'm sure that if Quornings were known to be monitoring, responding and helping from time to time, then owners would be more likely to be more active participants themselves. It certainly works on the F boat website, where Ian Farrier occasionally posts replies & technical help.

What do you think gentlemen? Would you all like some factory input on this forum?

Cheers

Mal

Mal
DF920 Pelican, Swansea
Steve B.
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Waterstay tension adjustment

Post by Steve B. »

I have found the easiest way to adjust for proper waterstay tension on my DF1000 is to unfold the boat almost all the way with the boat in the water.

Leave about a ten degree angle from fully unfolded.

With both sides in this position, adjust the waterstays so the main hull pin can be inserted by hand.

Adjust all of them, then unfold the boat the rest of the way.

This will give decent aka support during sailing while at the same time allowing easy folding/unfolding.

If the waterstays are too tight, it will put stress on the chainplates, as well as the aka hinges.

The ama hinge studs need to be adjusted so there's no slop, but also not so tight that you get binding. The boat should not be difficult to fold or unfold.

Steve B.
Flexible Flyer
DF1000 #15
tpaliwoda
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Post by tpaliwoda »

Mal:
Sounds like a long shot, but are the backstays loose when you are expanding the boat? I know I caught myself a few times when the backstays were not loose enough, made for a tough go.

As for movement of the ammas...... I replaced the pins this past spring. I had the oval problem and the hulls moved a bit. I caught up with Jen's last year at the Annapolis boat show and he gave me great directions on how to replace the pins. Just was a pain finding (fabricating) the pins. Well since I replaced the pins, the ammas open smoother and there is zero movement in the ammas. It was a job well worth doing.

Keep us posted.
Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Ipe Piccardt Brouwer
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Pins & extending amas

Post by Ipe Piccardt Brouwer »

Ted,

which pins id you replace? Untill now I was assuming everybody was talking about the locking pins in the aluminium safety-tubes behind the rear amas. Now you mention smoother opening of the amas after replacing the pins, which I don't understand. Do you mean the pins in the swing wing pivots?

(We are in need of a dragonfly lexicon that bestows names on al these hard-to-describe parts of the swing wing system!)
Ipe Piccardt Brouwer
DF920-28 'Ngalawa', Medemblik
tpaliwoda
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Post by tpaliwoda »

Yes, the swing wing pins. I am sorry for the confusion.
Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Mal
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 16:48
Your Country: Wales

920

Post by Mal »

Steve B;-

Your method of setting waterstay tension sounds good, but how do any of us know what is correct?
Another contributor mentions how Arnie sets them tight when boat out of the water, which is what I did. However, this method makes the waterstays bar-tight when in the water, and leads to my query about the floats being very difficult to winch out.
Hence my appeal for factory input to this forum on matters like this. After all,, waterstay tension is pretty fundamental to the safe operation of the boat;- we need to know for certain what is the correct method.

Thanks to all for their posts/replies.

Mal
DF920 Pelican, Swansea
Bo Wetzel
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'Correct' Setting of Swing Wing System

Post by Bo Wetzel »

I've contacted Arne Reher to see if he could part with some of his wisdom/experience in setting up waterstays etc.
Unfortunately he is on holiday at the moment but hopefully when he gets back we might get some feedback from him.

I'll also contact Jens Quorning to see if I can persuade him to give us some advice on this important topic.
Mal
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 16:48
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Correct setting of swing-wing system.

Post by Mal »

Thanks Bo;- input from Quornings would be most welcome & very valuable. They are, after all the designers and builders, and can give the definitive answers.

Mal
DF920 Pelican, Swansea
jerry99
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Fold/unfold - hard work

Post by jerry99 »

The item was discussed in 2008, but I haven’t find an post answering my concern. On my DF920E it is nearly impossible to winch out the Amas without distorting the winch handle! Yes, I checked: no yammed lines, backstays loose, secure pin released… I guess too much or too loose waterstays. The posts I’ve read in this forum are more cryptic than clear to me in the question of the right tension. Is there an DF-Guru knowing the holy grail for spreading the wings of a DF without being a bodybuilder? :?
DF 920E SUI-118, Lilly Belle
Martin W
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Re: Fold/unfold - hard work

Post by Martin W »

jerry99 wrote:The item was discussed in 2008, but I haven’t find an post answering my concern. On my DF920E it is nearly impossible to winch out the Amas without distorting the winch handle! Yes, I checked: no yammed lines, backstays loose, secure pin released… I guess too much or too loose waterstays. The posts I’ve read in this forum are more cryptic than clear to me in the question of the right tension. Is there an DF-Guru knowing the holy grail for spreading the wings of a DF without being a bodybuilder? :?
Hello again Jerry, I guess as new 920 owners we are going through all the same problems at the same time. My boat is still ashore, there was a lot wrong with her when we bought her, we were forced to take her out, missing the remaining sailing this year. Our folding, in both directions, was mega stiff, and I think our waterstays were correctly adjusted. Ours were a combination of over tight pivot bolts, lack of lubrication, plus some dirt, on the bearing pads on the amas, and folding lines that were too thick. I’ve replaced the lines with 8mm Marlow D2, which runs a lot more smoothly. 10mm is very tight in the sheaves, I’m fairly sure this was the major contributor. The old rope was nominally 10mm, but my micrometer said 10.8mm. It was quite difficult just to pull the old lines out, never mind operate the system under tension. I have yet to fit and tension my new waterstays, plus we are having new tramps made, with new wire, which also has a bearing on the last bit of the unfolding force. Our 800, years back, liked to have the tramp walked on to finish the unfolding, then the folding line tensioned, pins in, backstays wound on. We had few problems with that, though clearly there’s a fairly big size difference. The 800 always felt like a big dinghy, not sure we’ll have that feeling with the 920.
DF920 Chiara
Bo Wetzel
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Adjusting the waterstays

Post by Bo Wetzel »

Have a search in the forum for "Adjusting the waterstays" and you'll find a number of good suggestions.
jerry99
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Re: Adjusting the waterstays

Post by jerry99 »

Bo Wetzel wrote:Have a search in the forum for "Adjusting the waterstays" and you'll find a number of good suggestions.
Thanks Bo
This forum is really helpful for newbies.
DF 920E SUI-118, Lilly Belle
jerry99
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue 20 Sep 16, 20:09
Your Country: Switzerland, Fribourg/ FR

Post by jerry99 »

Well, I've have had my lesson with the adjustment of the tension of the waterstays last week.
I had the impression the Amas were swinging too much in moderate waves. So I shortened the waterstays on one side for two turns - far too much, how I had to learn: Grinding out the Ama, I gave too much load on the Winch - the steelwire pulling back the trampoline snaped! :oops:

I replaced the broken wire with a Dyneema rope of 8mm and eased the waterstays to the previous configuration. It works! I don't know how reliable the Dyneema is, but I like it more than the wire.

What I understand: The crucial point for grinding out the ama is the diagonal tension of the Trampoline from the inner side in front to the outer edge where the trampoline is spanned by the wire.

Have other owners made similar experiences?
DF 920E SUI-118, Lilly Belle
Martin W
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Joined: Sat 14 Aug 21, 16:17
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Post by Martin W »

We launched last week. I can now extend and the amas mostly by hand. Need to winch to tension the tramps, and it’s easier to winch the last part of foldinh, but a transformation. I think it’s almost entirely due to the change of line for the folding system.
DF920 Chiara
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