Dingies

For all those DF1000 issues which do not fit into any of the categories below.
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TC
Posts: 61
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Dingies

Post by TC »

Just wondering what you use for a dingy and how do you bring it along. Tow? Stow? Tie it on the stern?

I've spoken with Steve B and he uses a couple inflatable kayaks and stows them in an ama.

Thanks,
TC
TC

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Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

Welcome to the board TC.

I use a light weight RIB that weighs under 100lbs. We carry it on the nets, inverted and well-tied if bad weather is expected or if leaving the boat. If the weather is mild and we're just going between harbors we may leave it upright with the drain plug removed.

I have a Forespar motor lift that can mount on the stern rail and always remove the dinghy motor before lifting the dinghy.

We used to lift the dinghy with a 3-point webbing harness I bought, then when it faded from UV I replaced it with one made of rope (much cheaper). A little trial-and-error was needed to find the balance point.

Most of the time when I have crew we lift it (horizontal with harness) using the spinnaker halyard, with one person on the winch and the other guiding the dinghy. We bring the dinghy between the bows and hoist it up or down over the forward crossbeam (with folding preventer bow-stay removed). I have also lifted it over the side of the trimaran but it is easier to control if the halyard is at less of an angle, as when lifting from between the bows.

When I am single-handed I do not use the 3-point harness, and instead lift it from the dinghy's bow eye. To put it in the water I raise with the halyard so the bow is raised but the stern is still on the nets, and I lock the halyard. Then I walk over to the stern of the dinghy and lift the stern over the front crossbeam, and grab the harness rope that's attached to 2-points of the stern and lower it into the water. Then I lower the bow.

Raising the dinghy is the reverse process, except I bring the bow much higher with the halyard so I don't need to work as hard bringing the stern over the crossbeam. I lower it on the net and position it in several steps handling one end at a time.

Image
Last edited by Double Horizon on Sun 30 Oct 11, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
Christian
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Post by Christian »

Hi TC

Towing is awkward, brings down speed and you may lose your dingy. Second DF800 I sailed had a small dingy on port trampoline. It worked nice. You get used to walk around it. Today I bring around a sit-on-top-kayak. (http://www.oceankayak.com/kayaks/tandem ... u_two.html) It is a much better vehicle for exploring, easy to handle and easy get ashore from. It is just to paddle up on beach/rock. I use it for explore the islands of the outer archipelagos. It is stable and loads quite a lot. Like the unsinkable design. The holes in the kayak are perfect for ropes – so it is easy to tie it down.
It takes some space onboard – the front of it is on the beam and the aft on the trampoline. I have found that it is a good spot for the solar-panel. It gets a better angel to the sun when mounted on the kayak.
So think of what you want from your extra keel. There is always a way to get it onboard.
Christian
TC
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Thanks!

Post by TC »

Thanks to all for the responses!

-TC
TC

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gminkovsky
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Post by gminkovsky »

I have a lot of experience with dinghies on my 920: 2 sailing kids, 2 exploring adults :-).

Here are the details:

I use a 10 foot (3.1 m) Portabote as my launch. It is very light (<30 kg). I have a 2.5 hp outboard on it. I roll it on wheels down the dock, push it into water and load up. It is very stable - I can stand in it safely. I usually leave it at the mooring when I go sailing. On very rare occasion I tow it which slows down the boat and the dinghy takes water over the bow. Once or twice I lifted it on the port trampoline for a short cruise. It can carry all 4 of us and some luggage.

When I am single-handed or just 2 people, I usually take my inflatable kayak. It is very light - ~15 kg. It can take 2 people and a couple of bags in rough weather or 3 people in calm conditions. I always pick it up and place on port trampoline when I sail. This kayak also always comes with us on cruises. We use it to explore or just hang around the boat. Or the kids play with it.

On long cruises I take a Walker Bay 10 hard dinghy with inflatable tubes which makes it a RIB. It is about 75kg + motor + spars/sails/centerboard/rudder. It can carry all of us and some luggage. It is very safe even in rough water. It also rows very well. We use it as a primary transportation on cruises, but also for exploring and as a sailing dinghy. I very rarely tow it - only for short distances. It tows very well but slows the boat significantly. On cruises I pick it up and store it upside down on the port trampoline. My procedure is somewhat similar to what Larry describes. I have a 3-point harness to attach to the dinghy. The harness is then attached to a 5-to-1 block-and-tackle with cam cleat. That in turn is attached to the spinnaker halyard. The halyard is on a winch, but I just pull on the rope while pushing the dinghy away from the ama side.

For the first few years I just stored this dinghy on the port trampoline. However, that puts unnecessary load on the trampoline. So 2 years ago a built a small wooden frame that supports the transom for the dinghy while the bow is supported by the forward aka. The frame's outer end is a rectangle that rests surrounding the ama hatch. The inner end is a short piece of wood that rests on the main hull's lip where the trampoline is attached. This setup works very well. It is easy to flip the dinghy. However, the frame adds yet another 10+ kg.

In addition to these, we also carry a windsurfer and rigging on cruises. Windsurfer can be used for a short paddle to the beach. On short cruises we also tow a laser behind us so 2 people can sail around at the destination. The laser does not seem to slow down the boat much. However, someone has to steer it to prevent it from sailing off the wave into the rear of the boat or from zig-zaging on every wave.

Overall, if the boat is on a mooring, by far the easiest way is to use a kayak and pull it up on board. There was a good discussion a while back on dealing with dinghies at the mooring. Kayak solves all of these problems. However, on cruises having a RIB with an engine dramatically improves livability and also allows to anchor farther away from everyone and from docks.

After all of my experiences and trial and error, I would pay extra for the lightest dinghy. I would not give up a kayak. I would keep a Portabote as my launch, but would get the lightest possible dinghy about 3.5-4 m long for cruising. Portabote could be converted into a cruising dinghy by attaching flotation all around it - something like "pool noodles". Without additional flotation it is not safe in rough water.
TC
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Post by TC »

Thanks Mr gminkovsky :)

Great info and I appreciate it. It took me a while to sort through it. Portabote? Huh? Fortunately google saved me.

An inflatable kayak and perhaps the Walker Bay 10 would be a good combination for us. I like the compactness of the inflatable and the ability to get around close to nature. Found an interesting model via REI, the Advanced Elements AdvancedFrame Convertible Inflatable Kayak.

But, the inflatable is not the vessel to bring my wife ashore for some retail therapy. Hence, the Walker Bay.

Once again thanks!
TC

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Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

TC wrote:Thanks Mr gminkovsky :)

snip
But, the inflatable is not the vessel to bring my wife ashore for some retail therapy. Hence, the Walker Bay.

Once again thanks!
The inflatable will be drier and much more stable than a Walker Bay 10. The WB 10 has less capacity compared an equal length inflatable dinghy and sits lower in the water at that rated capacity. Anything more than a small chop with 2 people aboard and crew won't stay dry.

BTW I don't care for Portabotes either. Bought one and sold it after only a few months. It's got pros and cons, but the lies in their marketing come from what they don't say (they weigh much more than published when you add the seats and transom, and the quality of the components is very poor, and there are stowing issues with the seats and transom because they take about as much room as the hull itself, and there are other issues.

I think overall inflatables are a better choice.

One more thing, hard dinghy edges and thin-skinned lightweight cored trimaran hulls aren't a good match. :(
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
TC
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Post by TC »

Larry,

The inflatable I was referring to an inflatable kayak.

But your point about what I'm assuming is a RIB style dingy vs WB is taken. WB now has a inflatable tube kit to turn the hard boat into a RIB-ish. Apparently, it increases the stability while providing bumpers and not interfering with rowing (reference an article in Jan/Feb'11 issue of 'Good Old Boat'). Add in the sailing option, and it could be fun in as well as utilitarian.

The question for me is cost and weight. Add all the WB 10 options and suddenly its around $2800 and at least 125 lbs (just the hull). Still cheaper than a Laser ($5600 new). West Marine has inflatables for less than $1500 and under 80 lbs.

Engine vs rowing.... I understand the RIB styles don't row very easily as the tubes interfere with the oars. Obviously, an engine can get you further faster. But now there is a need to deal with yet another fuel. Diesel engine, furnace and cooktop. Propane grill. Gasoline engine?

Rowing, one needs some exercise! With the shallow draft, the Dragonfly can get closer to shore reducing the need for an engine. Yet I can be lazy. How about a sail? Is there a kit for a RIB? And now I'm back to the WB....
TC

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Steve B.
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Dinghy stowage

Post by Steve B. »

Besides weight, you need to think about WHERE you are going to put that weight.
IMHO only, but we really like having clean decks when sailing, both from a safety as well as visual point of view.
That's why we went with inflatable kayaks.
They're slow, but if all you need is something to get you to shore while carrying a few things even a hot dish for a potluck, they're fine.
When tightly inflated, I wouldn't have a problem going through a foot or so of surf at the beach if necessary.
With nothing to catch sheets at the wrong time, we can focus on having fun and relaxing instead of watching out for disasters waiting to happen at the worst possible time.
Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

TC, your impression about rowing inflatables is right, but the main issue is they don't track well in a glide and don't glide well between strokes, especially in a headwind.

Rowing is actually a strength of the Portabote.

If you go the PB route, be aware of the following disadvantages other then those I mentioned above:

1) You can't board over the bow unless you're very agile and have both hands free, as the bow is very narrow and the gunwales are very flexible offering little stability even if holding on. If you can walk the high-wire in the circus this comment is not an issue. It is an issue for most people carrying things and boarding at a crowded dinghy dock. (You go in/out over the sides via a neighboring dinghy).

2) The stern corners are hard and sharp, even harder when cold. Not compatible with a swinging thin-skinned cored hull trimaran.

3) the black seams will mark your non-skid if dragged during launch/retrieve. Difficult to clean.

4) The seats and transom will start to fall apart within a short time. Shoddy and cheap.

5) Launching and retrieving will be a challenge. The flexible sides and bow make it more "interesting" to lift, and you will need to drill the stern to mount lifting eye bolts.

6) good and bad: it's ugly, but it's less likely to be stolen.

7) seats and transom add about 25-30 pounds above published weight.
Last edited by Double Horizon on Fri 25 Mar 11, 4:51, edited 1 time in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
gminkovsky
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Post by gminkovsky »

OK, since I have both WB10 and Portabote and use both regularly, here are my findings:

WB10 rows infinitely better than Portabote. In fact, I rowed WB10 with wife, 2 kids and 2 full water carriers for about a mile or 2 without straining. The main advantage is rigid and stiff hull and real long wood oars. With the inflatable tubes, WB10 is very safe and handles chop and motor boat wake easily. Once I got stuck in a very fast but extremely shallow creek and was not able to use the engine. I was able to row out and keep the dinghy on course. We use a 2.5 HP engine and are able to go on 5-10 mile excursions, but not fast. A 5 HP engine will push the boat on a plane with 1 rider.

Portabote is too flexible to transmit power from oars. So you can only row leisurely. The oars are light weight aluminum, too short, with lousy oar locks. The bow is very low and will easily take on water in chop. However, with a 5 HP engine not only will it plane, but will tow a kid on an inflatable tube. Top speed with 5 HP is ~12 kn. It will also plane with 2.5 HP and 1 person. Portabote is extremely stable, except entering from the bow as Larry points out. On the other hand, you can stand in the boat and pick up a cooler without tipping! You do need to protect the mother-ship from it. So I rigged 6 small fenders in a single horizontal line and attached the port side. Forget about folding it. No place to store everything and too much bother to do it. It is not safe in open or choppy water. However, there is a way to convert it to a reasonable and light RIB: permanently attaching 3 rows of thick pool noodles (2 m long, 10-15 cm in diameter, made out of flexible foam). I believe this was described in Practical Sailor. You can go wild with colors of noodles :). This will make a very light-weight rigid boat with very comfortable seats, stable and plenty of capacity.

Both WB10 and Portabote are indestructible. Ignore everythign and just drag the boat. There are some things that are both poorly designed and poorly made on Portabote: oar locks, black hard rubber tubes covering all seams, bow cover.

Wb10's main advantages are versatility: it rows well, it motors acceptably, capacity is good, it can sail. Although my kids say it's boring (in comparison to a Laser!), my son was able to teach my wife to sail on it. It doesn't point very well in lighter wind (I think the daggerboard should be larger) but still makes very enjoyable sailing. With inflatable tubes, you can't capsize it. The main disadvantage is weight.

I've had my WB10 for 7 years (I added inflatable tubes 4 years ago). I wish it was lighter and I had a bigger DF. It is holding up very well, but we use it only for cruising, about 1 month per year.

Portabote's main advantages are light weight, stability and motoring performance. The main disadvantage is it is not really unsinkable (they claim it will just float if swamped, but there would be no way to row or motor back to shore).

I've had my Portabote for 4 years and it was 3 years old when I got it. The prior owner used it for fishing in a bay. I use it as a launch to go from dock to a moored boat, as a run-about in no-wind days, as a spectator boat when my children are racing. It is holding up well.

I can lift both boats single-handed onto the trampoline. However, with a 3 meter tide, I can pull the Portabote up a steep ramp onto land singlehanded or can lead it down the ramp without it running away. WB10 requires 2 people at high tide when the ramp is almost horizontal or 3-4 people at low tide!

So, in dinghies, just like in big boats, everything is a compromise.

George
TC
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Thanks!

Post by TC »

Gentlemen,

I do appreciate the inputs, the discussion and patience! Compromises....

Since I'm taking delivery in Waukegan (at least pending a good survey today) and sailing #17 on Lakes Michigan and Huron before hauling her to the PNW, I think I'll keep it simple.

I know I want a kayak, this is the PNW after all with a lot of wildlife to see (and create). REI has 20% off member sale for a single item. So, I'm planning on getting the Advanced Elements AdvancedFrame Convertible Inflatable Kayak. It is two person, but the seats move to make it one person. This should get my wife comfortable with a kayak, allow the two of us to get around, potentially haul a bunch of groceries and maybe a couple small terrier(ists). This kayak has lots of good reviews and and since this inflatable folds into a suitcase size, it travels well.

If this 'kayak experiment' goes well, we could then buy a second, single-person Advanced Elements kayak...or go a different route for a WB. While the portabote has some advantages, the versatility of the WB appeals to me.

Good to see a lively discussion on this board! Thanks!
TC

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LInsolent
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Re: Dingies

Post by LInsolent »

TC wrote:Just wondering what you use for a dingy and how do you bring it along. Tow? Stow? Tie it on the stern?

I've spoken with Steve B and he uses a couple inflatable kayaks and stows them in an ama.

Thanks,
TC
On my DF1000#27 “L’Insolent”, I use "L'Insolinho", a 1.8m dingy (which was up to this date the only new boat I ever bought) with a 2HP Yamaha (I bought this second-handed engine on the net, for 200€, and so far it has never failed – 4 years now). The ensemble is neat, light and efficient and on calm weather may sit 4, though the official capacity is only for 2. A slightly bigger dingy with a 9.9HP would be much faster and could be used to toe "L'Insolent", if necessary, but it wouldn't fit under the wheel, while being considerably heavier and harder to use single-handed.
For short trips I place "L'Insolinho" on the portside net; while cruising I roll and store it under the wheel. It takes me 14 minutes, with Miguel, to drop anchor, lower main and roll the foresail, remove the dingy from the lock, inflate it, put the engine, and gently throw "L’Insolinho” overboard. It is also very easy to bring it onboard alone. Wash your dingy with fresh water before packing and once dry powder it with chalk.
Bottom line: I am totally satisfied with this choice on a 580 + 200 = 780€ budget. And “L’Insolinho” is so cute in yellow :)
https://picasaweb.google.com/1047938758 ... 9820434786
TC
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An Update

Post by TC »

In case anyone was curious about the results. And yes, I'm bored. Strider is on the hard getting bottom paint and I'm avoiding spring yard work.

I purchased the inflatable kayak and have not used it much. Initial sailing on Lakes Michigan and Huron in 2011 was cold and many times raining so all the nights were spent in a marina, mostly after a long day sailing leaving little time for play. So, there was little opportunity to use the kayak.

Once back in PNW, we found my wife had difficulty getting into the kayak. Something else was required.

Found a 1990ish, 9.5 foot Gig Harbor Boatworks sailing dingy. Weighs about 70 lbs and rows very easily, even with 2 adults and 2 Irish terriers. Sails nicely also! Stows nicely on the net and easy to lift in and out of the water. For winter, I use the spinnaker halyard and stow it on the bow.

It is a displacement hull so any engine over 2hp is overkill. Looking at a couple, but have not yet gone this route. I have mixed feelings about a gasoline engine as it would be another fuel to deal with, on top of diesel and propane.

Strider is diesel: cooktop, furnace and engine. A diesel outboard would be easiest fuel-wise, but diesel outboards are not yet ready for prime time. Have a propane grill and am already dealing with easy to refill bottles etc. Lehr makes a 2.5 hp propane engine, but costly. Lastly, have 300 watts solar panels. Maybe an inexpensive trolling motor would do the trick, at least for an initial set up. If it continues to work well, keep with it.

After this summer, we should know. My wife might think an entirely new set up is needed. Inflatable Takacat anyone?

Thanks to all for the advice above!
TC

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gminkovsky
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Post by gminkovsky »

TC,

1 gallon of gas will last you a whole summer in a modern 4-stroke 2 hp engine! But you will need to find room to store this container somewhere on the mother-ship!

I have a 2.5 HP Suzuki with a tiny built-in tank. The only time I bring along a gas can is when we go exploring. Otherwise, just to get to/from shore the built-in lasts for many-many trips.
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