Anchors

For all those DF1000 issues which do not fit into any of the categories below.
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TC
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri 31 Dec 10, 20:26
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Anchors

Post by TC »

I'm wondering what anchors owners of DF1000 are using and under what conditions you'd feel comfortable using them in.

Further, what are you using for rode? Chain and line combo? How much each?

And then, are you anchoring from the bow or have you created a bridle from each ama?

Reason I'm asking these questions is I'm looking to purchase a DF1000 and thought I'd ask the experts. And then, a buddy just lost a Luders 44 against the rocks using a danforth type anchor in sea grass. He had 100' of chain plus another 50' of rope for over 10:1 scope.

Thanks,
TC

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DF 1000 #17
Baboonty
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Post by Baboonty »

I use a light 3,2 kg fortress for daily mooring, stored permanently in the forward storage.
I have also a 10kg Kobra for longer mooring which isn't the best choice, althought it's an excellent anchor, because it doesn't fit good in the anchor fitting and so have to store it in the aft storage.
I will probably move next to a delta anchor that I used on my previous boat and never disapointed me and seems to fit the DF 1000
Steve B.
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Primary and secondary anchor

Post by Steve B. »

I modified the starboard ama anchor roller to fit a Bruce.
I use about a boat length of 5/16" chain followed by rode.
For a stern hook, I have an aluminum Danforth type brand X.

Steve B.
Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

Given that you are in the Pacific NW US, I'm not familiar with anchoring conditions there.

My first choice for a DF-1000 here in the NE US would be a Manson Supreme. Second choice would be a Rocna then 3rd would be Steel Spade or Delta. All 33-35 pounds weight, maybe go oversize to 45 if you really want a storm-ready anchor. I would strongly recommend against the Aluminum Spade -- they don't have enough density to penetrate a firm bottom well.

Chain would be limited to about 20 feet of 5/16 because you don't have a windlass and need to raise it by hand (another reason not to go heavier than 35 on the anchor). Also boat weight is a performance consideration. If you have to choose between chain length weight and anchor weight you'll get better holding if you put it in the anchor. 5/16" chain weighs 1.1 pounds per foot.

5/8" rope rode deployed to the bow cleat, and if you're planning to stay you can rig a bridle from the front of the outer beams (about 20 feet each side) and use a rolling hitch to attach to the rode. You also have the option of using a bridle on just the side where you attach the rode. I have found the "half-bridle" to be effective.

Secondary would be a Fortress FX 16 or FX-23 with 10 feet of chain and a second 5/8" rode.
Last edited by Double Horizon on Sat 26 Feb 11, 15:02, edited 1 time in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
TC
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Post by TC »

Conditions in the PNW....

Bottoms are generally mud with areas of rock and sea grass. Winds can become near hurricane, normally in fall through spring.

The DF1000 I'm considering comes with a Fortress, I don't know the size. According to the studies, the Fortress is good in sand and mud, but awful in sea grass. Once again, according to the studies I've seen, most anchors appear to be poor in rocks. The studies also state a plow type is good in sea grass.

Then you get into the company sizing charts, I've found one with a chart specifically for multihulls. The rest only go by boat length....

Hence the questions. I'm coming to the conclusion I need at least two anchors aboard. The included Fortress should be good in most locations around the Sound, but probably not the best under more severe conditions and certainly not in sea grass.

So, a heavier plow or claw anchor seems to be an answer. If I recall correctly, the plow sets better than the claw, but the claw doesn't release easily if the wind shifts. Using about a boat length of chain seems to be recommended. Additionally, using a bridle would be more secure. However, all the above is moot if the anchor is not properly set in the first place!

Additional comments are requested!

Thanks,
TC

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DF 1000 #17
parkhouse
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Post by parkhouse »

My Df 1000 came with a 15 Kg Bruce deployed from inboard on the port ama and attached to 20 m of 8 mm chain. It was just about at the limit of my ability to lift but it served well until I had to cut the rope in an emergency. I've replaced it with a 15 Kg Rocna and shortnened the chain length to 15 m. The manufacturers recomment this size for a 10 m multihull. They also recommend using a trip rope. If you worry about wrapping it around the prop, as I do, you can attach it to the chain at a point where it will be easily accessed according to the depth of water rather than using a buoy.
You should use a bridle. With a single line and single crew, it is possible for the boat to point 90 degrees or more from the anchor with resulting damage to an ama as the chain comes up.
Mike Paterson
Df 1000/34 Champus
Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

The Manson Supreme and Rocna are both excellent at penetrating grass (much better than Delta, CQR or Spade) and they will also handle a reversing wind or current as well as any anchor. If they do break out in a direction change they will likely reset quickly. Holding power is as good as it gets. They have more fluke area than plows of equal weight and a scoop-shape that helps holding. I have one of each (Manson Supreme 35 and Rocna 44) and I think the performance is about the same for equal weight. (I would never use the Manson's slot "feature".) The Manson is a better value here in the US and is made in New Zealand whereas the Rocna is now made in China.

(For the DF-1200 the Rocna 20 kilo (44 lb.) is the largest that will fit the bow, whereas the Manson 35 lb. is the largest that will fit, so I use a Rocna as primary on my 1200.) Both great anchors. I think the Manson 35 has better holding than any plow 45, and the Rocna 44 (20k) is better than a plow 55.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
tpaliwoda
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Post by tpaliwoda »

I am onboard with Larry - Manson Supreme! Always has set on the first try, even with a shallow scope.
I use a Fortress FX13 as a secondary anchor, but it has a hard time setting in any type of "weeds".
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
penryj
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Manson Supreme

Post by penryj »

Anyone know which is the largest Manson or Rocna that will fit the bow roller of the DF35.

Plus, it is OK to use a bridle off the amas? Isn't there too much force put on them?
Steve B.
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Bridle is ok from amas in 40 knots

Post by Steve B. »

Last summer we had anchored in a bay open to some Straits of Juan de Fuca swell with 5:1 scope and a bridle from the amas.
We also had our stern hook out with 6 feet of chain and 7:1 scope to keep us pointed into the swell.

That night, we rode out a (surprise to everyone including the NOAA weather guys) lightning storm with big wind and 180 degree shifts.
The winds easily hit gusts of over 40 knots.
The stern anchor dragged some, but the Bruce did not.
tpaliwoda
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Post by tpaliwoda »

I keep both anchors in the front anchor locker. I do not store them on the roller for a couple of reason's - the marina I used to be in, they may have "walked" away, they will not catch a sheet or sail, and I won't hit into it with my foot!
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
gminkovsky
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Re: Manson Supreme

Post by gminkovsky »

penryj wrote:
Plus, it is OK to use a bridle off the amas? Isn't there too much force put on them?
The best way is to put the bridle to the outboard ends of the akas, not the forward eyes on the amas.

BTW, a bridle between the end of one aka and main hull bow mooring cleat also works very well. I found that the boat actually swings less with the bridle off center. However, in stronger wind, it is (probably) better to even out the loads by rigging the bridle to both akas.

penryj,
On a different note, your signature suggests that you moved from Persian Gulf to NY. Where are you keeping your boat and/or sailing?
gminkovsky
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Re: Anchors

Post by gminkovsky »

TC wrote:I'm wondering what anchors owners of DF1000 are using and under what conditions you'd feel comfortable using them in.

Further, what are you using for rode? Chain and line combo? How much each?

Thanks,
On my 920 I have 2 anchors and 2 rodes: Fortress 16 and Delta 10 kg. Both are rated for a boat 1 step above my size, and I would not go for anything smaller. Rode 1 is 12 feet of 5/16 chain and 150 feet of 5/8 double-braid nylon. Rode 2 is 12 feet of 5/16 chain and 300 feet of 5/8 3-strand nylon. Both have 25 foot long bridles. The ground is soft mud, hard mud and very rarely eel grass. I usually use Fortress because I don't have to break my back handling it. Also, Fortress will hold in soft mud, while Delta just plows through soft mud. Fortress held up in sustained over 20 kn in soft mud. I prefer 8:1 or better scope. Fortress is too light to set if there is current or the boat is moving.

Twice I weathered a passing storm at anchor far from home. First time over 40 kn winds but protected from waves. Delta held up on 20:1 scope. Second time sustained over 30 kn with 3 miles of fetch in a bay that created big waves. Delta held up on 30:1 scope and Fortress held up on 15:1 scope (I had both anchors in, and the boat swinged (?) about 150 degrees). (I spent the night in the cockpit worrying and watching the instruments while the family slept, but there was not much I could do except run the engine to take the strain off the anchors, but it never came to it...).

Personally, I believe that longer scope is more important than the type of anchor, provided your anchor is not a piece of junk or undersized. I heard of too many first-hand stories of boats dragging their oversized anchors at Block Island when the wind was 15 or 20 because everyone is on 2:1 or 3:1 scope.

Also, with a 9 foot (3 m) tide in our area, the boat always swings 180 degrees every 6 hours. Both of my anchors always reset themselves while we sleep. I occasionally find a very large clam in the forks of the Fortress which would prevent the anchor from resetting correctly. So if I expect anything above light wind in unprotected anchorage, the Delta must be used.
penryj
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Post by penryj »

penryj,
On a different note, your signature suggests that you moved from Persian Gulf to NY. Where are you keeping your boat and/or sailing?
This season I'll be keeping the boat at Branford, CT. It seems like a decent compromise between where we live (Westchester) and where the best sailing is. I don't know the waters here yet.

Having been in the Gulf for 3 years, at the moment it feels like the weather here will be warm enough to venture out for 2 days during August!
Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

penryj wrote:
penryj,
This season I'll be keeping the boat at Branford, CT. It seems like a decent compromise between where we live (Westchester) and where the best sailing is. I don't know the waters here yet.

Having been in the Gulf for 3 years, at the moment it feels like the weather here will be warm enough to venture out for 2 days during August!
penryj don't worry you'll have at least 3 days. :)

You should give me a call. I live very close to you -- Richard S has my number.

Larry
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
TC
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Thanks!

Post by TC »

Everyone, thank you for the details...really appreciate it!
TC

Formerly of:
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DF 1000 #17
Steve B.
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What is the advantage of securing bridle to the akas?

Post by Steve B. »

gminkovsky,

You said it was better to secure the bridle to the aka tips instead of the ama tips.
I realize it's probably a physically stronger point, but is there any other advantage?

Steve B.
tpaliwoda
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Post by tpaliwoda »

Steve,
I used to set two of the three mooring lines to the aka tips. But no longer do!
I have noticed that in rough weather it puts a lot of stress on that new pin re-fit job. I am convinced that during one big storm, prior to my hinge pin refit, it really did a job on the old hinge pins. I wonder if any one else noticed this?
I won't argue the point it is a better set comfort wise. The boat really doesn't sail on the mooring or at anchor that much when the lines are set on the aka ends. But I don't think it is worth the extra wear, especially in the long run.
Just my observations.
Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Steve B.
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Just got back from a weekend outing

Post by Steve B. »

I tried the bridle from the aka tips with a 26 foot power boat rafted to me.

I couldn't tell any difference, although there was absolutely no current or wind all night long... :roll:

I think I'll try the tips again. It's never given me any problems even in big wind.

Steve B.
TC
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Ama/Aka Bridle vs Vaka Bridle

Post by TC »

I need to state this is an intellectual exercise for me as I've no actual experience anchoring a trimaran. But I always question conventional wisdom...and learn a lot by it. I thank you in advance for your insights.

I understand the need to keep the anchor rode on the boat's centerline, maintaining symmetry or even, distributed pressure else the bow will oscillate in the wind. Conventional wisdom on this forum seems to advocate using a wide anchor bridle attached to the ama bows or the outboard end of the akas. I've seen the bow technique used on catamarans, but they have no choice.

Trimarans on the other hand, have a choice. The previous owner of #17 used a mono-hull style bridle/snubber. Yes, there are cleats on each side of the vaka bow to which the bridle is attached so symmetry is maintained. What I don't know is if he used this technique in mild wx only or if it experienced rougher wx.

However, a vaka snubber would:
1. Eliminate any stresses on the amas and akas
2. Reduce the material used (shorter bridle for instance)
3. Probably be safer as the entire operation would be from the bow

Has the vaka snubber technique been discounted by the forum and if so, why?
TC

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gminkovsky
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Post by gminkovsky »

@ TC:
I tried this on my 920. A few comments and observations:

1. The lines tend to chafe more on the main hull rub rail
2. The boat sails/swings a lot more
3. The bow up/down motion in waves is much greater than in mid-ship which, I suspect, also contributes to the chafe.

I was also under impression that all the monos envy our ability to set a wide bridle :).

BTW, I find that symmetry is not so important for directional control. When I set a bridle between main hull and 1 ama, the boat actually swings less and is more stable.


@ Steve B.:
I was told that the ama bow attachment is not strong and to use aka attachment point.

Additionally, the 920 ama bow is very narrow. It is a lot easier to be on the trampoline and deal with all ropes.
Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

I agree with everything gminkovsky wrote. I've owned a 920, 1000, and 1200 (one at a time) since 2001 and always kept the boats on a permanent mooring with primary attachments to the forward aka (beam) ends. That's the best way.

I use a third attachment pennant as backup (with a bit of slack) to the center hull. It has never been needed.

The boat is moored where the fetch in one direction is at least 30 miles. In North-Easters we get waves up to 2 meters on the mooring for 24-48 hours duration. All tackle is inspected on a scheduled basis and replaced as needed to assure it is in good condition. The attachments to the boat have never had any chafe (spliced-in shackles are used for attachment). The mooring pennants are replaced every 2 or 3 years, sooner if any chafe point is seen (sometimes seen near mooring end).

http://www.nstsystems.com/multihulls/Pa ... /sail1.jpg
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
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Post by tpaliwoda »

Colligo makes a great mooring bridal system for trimarans.

http://www.colligomarine.com/Bridle-Pla ... System.htm

The mooring lines never tangled and there was never any chafe on the lines.

If you are on an exposed mooring, this is a must. Great product.


Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Double Horizon
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Post by Double Horizon »

Yes I'm using the Colligo bridle plate.

I also keep my bridle afloat using inexpensive closed-cell foam pipe insulation from the home center store. If the lines can't sink they don't wrap on the mooring chain, another possible chafe point.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
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