Backstay rope wear?

[Christian]

Does your backstay (or shroud) ropes wear on the beams? I have noticed that all bends of the rope going up and down between the blocks are in contact with the beam. Have been thinking on lifting the lower block so the rope goes free. Has anyone done anything about this? Any ideas? / Christian

Please click on the photo to see it enlarged!

[Paul]

Hello Christian, your backstay does not look right, it shouldn't be touching the beam at all. On my DF the backstays are on the OUTBOARD side of the floats, not the inside, and attached to the padeye U bolt about 200 mm to the rear of the beams.
I can post a foto of my backstay set up if that helps.

[Christian]

Hi Paul

Can you post a photo?

I have been looking at old photos of the two other DF 800 I'm been sailing:

a) Another DF800 SW - it hade the shoruds mounted in the same way, the front (fixed) on the outside and the aft one on the inside (with the blocks)

b) a DF 800 with fixed wings - it looks like both shrouds are on the inside!

Browsed the photo gallery of this page - and there are some photos of boats with the same shroud mounting as I have.

Please post a photo - I'm curious - are there different configurations of shrouds on DF800s?

I think the reason for having shrouds on both sides is stability in the swing wing mechanism – all power from rig on one side is not good for the hub. But that does not change the main question. Can a padeye be mounted more aft on the ama? Or will a long shakel do the trick, with some padding on the beam?

/ Christian

[Double Horizon]

Hsnip
But that does not change the main question. Can a padeye be mounted more aft on the ama? Or will a long shakel do the trick, with some padding on the beam?

/ Christian

Christian - Changing the location of specially reinforced attachments is not a small job. Unless your boat was reconfigured by a prior owner after manufacture, I'd consider that choice only if there were no others.

I think the best solution is to shorten the (long section) of the shroud above the quick link, and lengthen the section below by the same amount. That will change the angle of the multi-part adjustments and allow them to clear the beam edge.

If your rigging does not need replacement you will need onlycut the upper section and replace only the lower attachment fitting (you could use Norseman or Sta-Lok mechanical fittings and do it yourself) and you will also need to replace the short lower section of wire with a longer one. For the new section you might want to consider using Dyneema single-braid instead of wire -- it's a simple splice and you could save weight and money by splicing thimbles at each end and using a D-shackle at the lower end attachment.

[Christian]

Hi Larry

That’s the way, to do it. Thanks Larry, I think I’ll do the simple test first – add a quick link (is that the right term for a: http://www.vajerman.se/69-snabblank-10mm.html )

There is one in the connection point (it is the connection point) where the shroud split in the short and the long part (is that the shroud and the backstay?) Adding a link of the same size on the short end, the split point will move aft – and then will the rope go free of the beam – maybe.

I’ll have to test.

Another effect of this is that it may be possible to mount the mast folded. Today that is impossible. When I fold, the shrouds are tight – so tight that they can’t be removed. (or connected)

So – stay posted – we got winter and snow here – I’ll do the test in May.
/ Christian

[Double Horizon]

Christian -- if you make the bottom section slightly longer with the quick link and you don't make the upper section shorter by the same amount, the mast could fall over when the boat is folded. You can't allow any slack.

Be very careful because the triangle is very small between the forestay, mast and back-stay when the boat is folded. (The corner of the triangle at the mast is a very "obtuse angle", and you can't let the masthead approach the opposite side of the triangle too closely or it will fall over in wind or from rocking).

See image of obtuse triangle http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... QIjuJawb2Q

[Paul]

I have sent a photo to Bo to add to this, as you can see, both side stays are in front of the beam and attached on the out side of the aka. My rig was replaced by the previous owner and he has added a dedicated backstay (the blue line) which allows for mast bend adjustment. Hope this is useful, and agree with Larry that changing the shroud lengths is the best way to go, also changing from wire to dyneema or spectra is a very good idea.

cheers and enjoy your winter,
( as you can see in the photos, taken on the Great Barrier Reef, we have nice warm weather. )

[Christian]

Hi Paul

Thanks for the photos – that was enlightening! First two questions:

1) Does the backstay interfere with the main sail? Do you have to shift each tack?
2) Does the backstay go all the way up or to the forestay ( 7/8 )?

We got 3 padeys on the ama
a) the front one – connected to the short end of the shroud (we all have the same configuration here)
b) the middle point – you have the long end of the shroud here
c) the aft one (on the inside) you have the backstay here

a is of one kind – for connection of shrouds with a bolt.
b is of another kind – a large eye – I have two blocks here for spinnaker sheet and downhaul.
c is also a large eye – I remember it as a more enforced eye than b – but I might be mistaken

It looks like there are more options here than I thought first

So if I move the long end of the shroud to b – where to put spinnaker sheet and downhaul?

This requires more thinking….

/ Christian

[Fredin]

Hi,

Interesting discussion.
My backstays goes the whole way up to the forestay, but the other end is fastened just behind the "winch" on the xxx (what is the right name?) that goes out to tha Ama
Now when i will buy a fathead, i suppose the backstays will cause a little more trouble, perhaps it is better to put them on the ama?

Is it necessery to have the backstays at all?
The last owner on my boat put them there just to be "safe".

Do you have backstays today Christian?

Best regards
J.Fredin

[Christian]

Hi,
No, I have no backstay. My rig is a “3 point” rig. – Forestay and shrouds.
The only case where I have thought this design may be “weak” – is going downwind with spinnaker. But in that case the mainsheet is also holding the mast too.

It looks like you have yet another configuration of your rig. If I read your mail right: you have backstays going to main hull. This means you have to shift them each tack? Or does your forestay go to masttop? And on the other end – this means you need another fasting point for your backstay. Somewhere close to the winch you wrote.

This is interesting; we have found 3 different configurations of the rig.
- 3 point – forestay and shrouds
- 5 point – forestay, shrouds and backstays to ama
- 5 point – forestay, shrouds and backstays to main hull.
Are there more rigging configurations out there?

Christian

[Fredin]

5-point rig yes!
And yes i have to shift them every tack.
Last owner put them there after he had lost the mast..

And the forestay ends 2,96 m from the top (12.4m)
Length of forestay Ca 10,56..

And the exact position is on the mainhull where it connects på the "Akas" Is it called that?

But i feels safe to have them in haurbor. 2 things that must brake apart before the mast goes down...
How hard do you tension the shrouds when you "minimize" the boat?

Johan

[Christian]

Hi Johan

When folded, my shrouds are tait by themself. The short end of the shroud is just long enough to let the boat fold. I usually fasten the lose end – but no tension.

Losing mast… do you know under what circomstances?
And – do you have a photo of the connection between aka (the beam) and the main hull? – I’m curious to see how the fasten point for the backstay looks. Just send it to Bo and he will post it in your post.
/ Christian

[tpaliwoda]

I'll add this to the mix. When we had our 25 (almost ten years ago now) we had a 5 point system.
I just checked some of the old photos to confirm.
All 5 stays terminated on the same shackle / fitting on the mast.
Forward was the forestay - that's a given.
We then had a shroud the went from forward of the front crossbeam up to the common shackle, then a split shroud backstay system. The shroud portion was on the amma about mid way between the beams and the adjustable backstay was just forward of the rear beam.
The backstay joined the fixed shroud about 7 feet off the deck. All fittings were on the outboard side of the amma.
We never had to adjust the backstays while sailing to tack the boat.
I never did understand why we needed the front shroud, but I didn't build the boat and they put it there for a reason. I learned to live with it as it never got in the way and I always felt it was like insurance - just in case!
In the later 800's they all seemed to just have the split backstay and omitted the forward shroud.
Might be time to re-rig the boat. The good thing is those shrouds are relatively inexpensive to do.

Hope that helps
Ted